LEO encounter at Home Depot in Allentown

[truecrimson]

On my way to pick up a free gun cabinet from Mike I stopped at the Home Depot by Lehigh and 78 today. It was about 3:30pm and I intended to buy a socket set to remove the bolts holding the cabinet to the floor. I've been in this Home Depot 3 or 4 times OC before with no issues. I proceeded directly to the tool area, and was looking over the sets for several minutes when a uniformed Allentown police officer approached from my left side, and passed behind me. He was obviously checking out my belt. I smiled and nodded at him.

Officer 1: "Hello sir, how are you today?"
Me: "I'm good, how about you?"
Officer 1: "I'm good. Why are you wearing your gun like that?"
Me realizing my recorder and cell phone are in the car: "I always wear my gun like this."
Officer 1: "Do you have a carry permit?"
Me: "I have a License to carry firearms, but you don't need one to carry openly on foot in Pennsylvania."
Officer 1: "Do you have some ID?"
Me: "Yeah."
Officer 1: "Let me see some ID."
Me hanging the socket set back on the wall: "I do not consent to this...."
Officer 1 cutting me off abruptly "I don't care what you consent to." as he gestured for me to hand him my wallet
Me: "I know, I just wanted you to be aware for the record that I do not consent to any of this." I took out my wallet, removed my drivers license and handed it to him.
Officer 1 looking at my drivers license: "Is this address correct?"
Me: "yes."
Officer 1: "Let me have your wallet."
I gave him my wallet. He went through my wallet looking for my LTCF, but couldn't locate it. While he was doing that he told me that the reason he came over was because some Home Depot employees had seen me, and asked him to check me out. He stated he was off duty, and in the store on his own personal business. I explained Hawkins, and Ortiz, and gave him a flyer. I offered twice to locate my LTCF for him. Finally he handed my wallet back and I produced my LTCF immediately.
Officer 1: "I should have just let you find it to start with."
At this point he placed my wallet on a nearby counter.
Officer 1: "Turn around and put your hands up."
Me: "I do not consent to this..."
Officer 1: "I know, but I'm going to disarm you for safety until we get this sorted out."
I turned around and raised my arms. He removed my Glock from the holster, removed the magazine, and ejected the round from the chamber placing them all on a nearby counter. I watched over my shoulder with my hands still in the air.
Officer 1: "Do you have any other weapons? A knife or anything?"
Me: "No."
He patted down my pockets only and looked around my belt. Then he took out a notebook and began writing down information from my ID and LTCF. He stepped back and made a radio call, but I couldn't hear what he was saying.
Me: "Can I put my arms down?"
Officer 1: "Yes"
Me: "Mind if I take some notes too?"
Officer 1: "Go ahead. Need a pen?"
Me: "Got one. I just didn't want to reach into a pocket suddenly."
Officer 1 laughing: "I already checked you, I know you don't have anything."
We both took notes, got each others information and chatted about the law and frightened citizens. I gave him a flyer. A Home Depot employee in an apron who had been loitering by the corner of the aisle came over and he informed her that I had a license. He also said that he was off duty, but had called in for an on duty officer. She went off to talk to another guy in plain clothes.
Me thinking of the need for an on duty officer: "Should I be planning to spend a night as a guest of the city?"
Officer 1 laughing again: "No. It's just because I'm off duty."
Shortly a pair of officers arrived. One went to the Home Depot employees, and the other came to us. He also took out a notebook and began taking notes as officer 1 filled him in. I got his name and badge number, and offered him a flyer which he declined, stating he had one already. I asked if he was a PAFOA member, and he said no. Officer 2 stayed with me while officer 1 went off to chat more on the radio. I noticed him looking at my Glock, still sitting on the counter, so I told him what it was and asked what he was carrying. He had to twist to try to look at it and told me it was a sig in .40, but he didn't know what model. He mentioned that he had a carry permit and was certain that it said it was for concealed carry. I corrected that it was a License to carry firearms and asked him if he had it on him. He took it out. I leaned over and we both looked at his LTCF. He was suprised to find no mention of concealement. We chatted about the law, and concerned store employees. Throughout the whole thing everyone was pleasant and smiling. I was cracking jokes like usual. Officer 2 got a big kick out of my story about being mistaken for stealing my own car a few years ago.

Finally Officer 1 came back, and informed me that apparently I was correct and had broken no law. There was a city ordinance about carrying but it was nullified by preemption. He repeated several times that concerned employees had asked him to check me out. He also informed me that Home Depot would be happy to have me continue shopping there, but I would have to leave my gun in the car. I said I would prefer to take my business elsewhere. I asked for the name of the manager, and he called the girl in the apron over. She told me the managers name, and reiterated that they would be happy to have me as a customer, but wanted me to leave my gun the car. The plain clothes guy and another Home Depot employee came over. I informed them that due to several incidents around the state I was already well aware of their corporate policy and would be talking to corporate about this. I also informed them that I would prefer to take my business to a place that supports the second amendment. I offered them all flyers but they declined.

Officer : "They support the second amendment, they just don't want it in the store."
Me looking at him like did you really say that: "That's not support of the second amendment."

They returned my cards and wallet, and we gathered up officer 3, and they escorted me out of the store. Before leaving the tool area Officer 1 placed my gun and mag in his bag, and handed me my extra round. We chatted as they walked me to my car, which they waited for me to open. I joked that if they get a call for MWAG and an armload of funyuns at Giant or Turkey Hill it is probably me. They were amazed that I had never had a LEO interaction while OCing. He then placed my gun and magazine on the seat, and we shook hands and parted ways. I reloaded my weapon, placed it back in my holster, and got in my car. I called Mike to tell him I was running late, and thankfully he had already unbolted the gun cabinet. Later I realized I had forgotten to get the report number from the officers.

When I called Monica to tell her she was not amused

[emsjeep]

+1 for putting up with it. Hope you follow through with HD HQ, a database of corporate policy letters wouldn't be a bad idea, I know if I ever decide to start OC I will carry a book around with me with all of the ones I can find. I already carry flyers and coppies of applicable state laws.

[steveforopen]

File a complaint with the city, PLZ.

[GunLawyer001]

He did not have enough facts to justify a Terry stop, or the disarmament. He is not allowed by law to demand your wallet, and to root around inside it.

The fact of a citizen complaint does not translate into reasonable suspicion, unless the facts alleged by that citizen translate into a crime. "Man with a gun" is not a crime, there must be more before the cops are justified in making demands. They can't even demand to see your LTCF if you're openly carrying, unless they see you get out of a vehicle, or you admit to arriving in a vehicle.

Police can start any conversational attempts they wish, to see if you'll make an admission that creates the reasonable articulable suspicion that they need before they can start bullying you. You just don't have to cooperate with their idle conversation.

Your LTCF doesn't mention "concealed", but there's a reference in the UFA to the purpose of the LTCF being to carry concealed or in a vehicle (Section 6109(a)). Some cops stop the analysis there, and say that if you're not in a vehicle, then you must carry concealed. They are wrong. The purpose of the license is to fulfill the requirement in 6106 that if you carry concealed or in a vehicle, you must have the license. That's it. It doesn't impose any concealment requirement, it exists solely so that you don't get arrested for unlicensed concealed carry under 6106.

[TakDwn]

Its an unfortunate event to see still occurring.
Anytime you get the officers to smile, and they allow you time to educate them its a step in the right direction.
I'd say it was a good encounter overall. You handled yourself well.

[thelemite]

At least you got a free cabinet

[QuitClaim]

Yeah, but you are using reason, logic, and the law to justify your opinion.

The cop doesn't care about that stuff.

"I don't care what you consent to." -Cop

When the revolution comes, I am going to write that on the firing wall.

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

He did not have enough facts to justify a Terry stop, or the disarmament. He is not allowed by law to demand your wallet, and to root around inside it.

The fact of a citizen complaint does not translate into reasonable suspicion, unless the facts alleged by that citizen translate into a crime. "Man with a gun" is not a crime, there must be more before the cops are justified in making demands. They can't even demand to see your LTCF if you're openly carrying, unless they see you get out of a vehicle, or you admit to arriving in a vehicle.

Police can start any conversational attempts they wish, to see if you'll make an admission that creates the reasonable articulable suspicion that they need before they can start bullying you. You just don't have to cooperate with their idle conversation.

Your LTCF doesn't mention "concealed", but there's a reference in the UFA to the purpose of the LTCF being to carry concealed or in a vehicle (Section 6109(a)). Some cops stop the analysis there, and say that if you're not in a vehicle, then you must carry concealed. They are wrong. The purpose of the license is to fulfill the requirement in 6106 that if you carry concealed or in a vehicle, you must have the license. That's it. It doesn't impose any concealment requirement, it exists solely so that you don't get arrested for unlicensed concealed carry under 6106.

Yep, I know. But it seemed better not to be difficult. I didn't get the vibe that were fishing for something, or intentionally harrassing a lowly citizen. They were nice guys. They really didn't know. In the end they learned through their own department that it is legal. I think if I had come off as a hardass they would have responded in kind, and the outcome would have been different. Their perception of OCers would be negative.

Thank you for laying out the particulars so clearly. I often have trouble keeping the legalese straight. I will bring up all of your points to the chief.

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by thelemite

At least you got a free cabinet

Yep, thank you. I like it. It's a nice cabinet. Your wife deserves rep for helping me get it loaded in the trailblazer

[Mocha Java]

First post here.

To O.P.:
Just curious, but why didn't you ask the policeman if you were free to go when he got past the "Hello sir, how are you today?"
I am interested in starting to open carry, but won't do it if it means I have to be anything but pissed off if I am illegally stopped.

ps I see that there is another H.D. thread here but it involves a manager, not the police.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...-oc-today.html