LEO encounter at Home Depot in Allentown

[Mocha Java]

OP may have educated an officer about open carry (and maybe not), but the situation he described was an unconstitutional detention and search.
To me that is an issue which the policeman was not at all "educated" about. It's not likely that he'll come across many more O.C.ers on his job, but he will surely have the opportunity to make lots of illegal stops unless he is educated about reasonable suspicion.
I hope OP files a complaint with the P.D. Only then might he ever change.

ps In my experience, policemen are always being told what the law is by civilians. They may smile and be pleasant, but it's going in one ear and out the other (and I can understand that). They only pay attention to their bosses.

[Scubastevie00]

Mocha... Its like when I was shadowing a Doctor... People always think that they are right, reguardless of what the person who went to medical school for 4+ years think. While I agree that sometimes Doctors are wrong every now and then.. I think this applies to everything. I have personally been corrected by friends(In the same field*ish*) that what I said about a drug or chemical is wrong(I'm a chemist)...

I'm glad this situation went well for you. I'm waiting for my decision or an OC holster for my 1911... When I get it I'll gladly OC into a S. Philly Walmart or chemical road HD... I don't have enough coin for an OC holster for my 1911 until the situation permits it, but when I do, I have no problem doing it if my schedule permits me being held up by people..

I have already "semi OC'd" w/ my shirt tucked in(by accident mind you) in multiple places where I did not know it was showing until I personally realized it.. No problems so far...

P.S. Anyone who has an OC holster for a 1911 that they don't use is welcome to send it this way...

[truecrimson]

I'd like to thank everyone for reading and responding. Rest assured this will be followed up on. I'm not sure which method or methods as yet, but I'm beginning to look into that. I've been extremely busy since it happened, and have not had time to do anything or even think much about it. You have all given me a lot to consider and I want to make sure I take the best course with this as regards to informal, formal complaint, or legal action.

ETA: Pennsy, thanks for stomping on HD. I'm going to call their corp in the AM and discuss it with them as well.

[PennsyPlinker]

I just got home from doing a bunch of errands, one of which was going to Home Depot to buy some parts for a window blind, and some air nails. The air around here is coming loose and needs to be nailed down again.

The important part is, I was sporting my trusty Sig Sauer, and although I encountered numerous employees, and spoke with at least three or four, no one gave me even a second glance. I asked if the store manager was about, but he is off today.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by truecrimson

I consider it a good encounter. Everyone was professional, pleasant and courteous. I didn't have to wear bracelets, ride in a police car, or be a guest of the city. 3 Allentown Police Officers and some HD employees got educated regarding the legality of OC. Home Depot will will be hearing from me as soon as I can lookup the other HD threads and get the contact info. Hopefully corporate will educate their employees regarding their policy. I will be getting a copy of the police report (I hope I don't need the number for that), and plan to try to make an appointment to speak with the chief to discuss educating his officers about open carry.

I don't see how numerous violations of your constitutional rights could ever be considered a good encounter.

[CommonHighrise]

The OP handled himself very well.
The LEOs handled themselves very poorly.
The ball is in the OP's court, for as far as he wants to take it, from a gentle reminder letter to the dept. heads, to raking them over some coals via legal council and taking them to task over unlawful search and seizure.

Never a problem in my local Home Depot, OC there often enough (once a month at least).

[00leland00]

Truecrimson,

pm sent.

[BlownNitroPontiac]

Originally Posted by PennsyPlinker

I asked if the store manager was about, but he is off today.

Heehee.

[BlownNitroPontiac]

Originally Posted by CommonHighrise

via legal council and taking them to task over unlawful search and seizure.

"counsel"

[Pa. Patriot]

Well, I've been extremely busy this week catching up on "things". And have unfortunately been unable to spend much time on the board so I just finally read this thread. I spoke with the OP via phone tonight and he/we will be investigating and initiating various responses to this incident.

Basically, what archon and gunlawyer, as well as others, have stated is quite accurate.
And I agree with the many that opine that this is not what I would consider a "good" encounter. I think the OP handled himself fine. More about that in a bit, his actions were not the problem, regardless if they were what anyone else would or would not do.

Problems:
1) Nothing substantial here, but I doubt the LEO had been summoned by an employee. For several reasons including that at least two other members OC in that store... Also, just the way the OP describes the event. I just have a hunch he acted on his own.
2) Asking for your ID is something the LEO can do, but he is more than aware that he can not demand it. That is LEO 101. Once you said you did not consent, he was done. Telling you he "Didn't care..." was pretty telling. Too bad you were unable to record We are going to superglue your phone to your forehead if that happens again
3) You refused consent but complied too willingly to the demands for ID. The disarming was forced, so no issue there, but you could have let him take your wallet, under protest, then it can not be later argued that "I asked, he complied" by the LEO
4) I do not want to get redundant on the points brought fwd by others so suffice it to say that he had no RAS of criminal activity and no PC to demand your property and search you and your property (wallet).
5) This situation has the twist of the manger wanting you to not carry (counter to corp policy but that is irrelevant on the scene). ALL the LEO could have legally done is ask you Q's and tell you to leave IF the employee/manager asked him to do so on their behalf.

I want to talk a bit about the way the OP handled the situation.

Some people think, as a general rule, that compliance in a situation where an LEO has made illegal demands is the best way to go. Others feel that the refusal to consent and comply is the better route. The more of these "incidents" we learn about the more I think folks need to spend more time thinking about how they are prepared to respond to an incident like this. And it's not just OC'ers. This applies to CC and other activities as well, but particularly OC for obvious reasons.

Firstly, I think a lot of people underestimate the intimidation factor of standing "before the man", in a public place, maybe with your family or friends in tow, and possibly unsure of your (legal) position. It's one thing to say you will only ask if you can leave and its another to actually do it. It's NOT as easy as some may think. Ask any of the folks here that have had LEO encounters and see what the vast majority of them say about this.

Another thing to consider is can you afford to not comply? Seriously, can you? Are you aware that you could loose your job? What about peace and harmony with your family members and friends? What about the wedding or your kids graduation that you have to go to in 2 hours, can you afford to be putting up with being arrested and missing your plans for the rest of the day?
Point being that we all have our abilities, limits and best interests to consider. And the criteria that we must consider can change from day to day. You may not have employment or family concerns in regards to any negative encounter that might make the news, but do you have an important date/function to attend that will make you decide to comply and hopefully be allowed on your way quicker?
I have been arrested for not complying with illegal demands. That does not mean that I won't comply if confronted tomorrow (most likely not ). We have to weigh the consequences of our actions. Both at the time and the long term.

As to which way is more beneficial in the end. I think that remains to be seen. Both methods have pros and cons.
If complying, because your gut says to or you are not capable of not complying, is your preferred method, there could be benefits to being the "good guy" and following up afterwards. But compliance can lead to the LEO feeling justified in their actions and thereby increasing the likelihood they continue such behavior. It will also usually reduce your ability to follow up in a legal/civil litigation action ....
If your the "am I free to go", "I will not answer questions without my attorney", "am I being detained" type, that approach can be effective too. The LEO is now forced to either assert authority (usually illegally in the case of OC) or let you go. If they perform any illegal processes that will only benefit others if you then follow up afterwards. Abuses on someone who firmly asserts their rights and does not "volunteer" any non required info/action has a solid grounds for a lawsuit later.

So whether you take the compliance or non-compliance route the key is how you follow up. Never accept abuses of your rights.

But before you can follow up we must all carefully consider how we will best conduct ourselves in an incident like the above. I bring this up because I have seen a lot of people get harassed, and when I talk to them afterwards I often hear the same thing, "I wish I had done this differently." Consider carefully how it will be best for you to handle an incident.