LEO encounter at Home Depot in Allentown

[MostlyHarmless]

Originally Posted by StealthBeast

Am I to understand that I do not need to give an officer my ID if I'm on foot?

Which law requires that you even have any ID on you?


Jan

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by zackattack784

I'll give this thread a bump. Has anything else has happened since the defendant's answer to the complaint? Being in the Atown area and shopping at that Home Depot on a semi-regular basis, I'm interested in how this case turns out.

Yes.

I was told some publishable documents were being sent to someone, but I haven't seen them appear yet.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by StealthBeast

. . .

Am I obligated to let a police officer disarm me? What situations REQUIRE that I allow him to disarm me and what situations am I allowed to say "No." What about an off-duty officer? What about non-firearms like knives/pepper spray?

. . .

In actual practice in the real world, it's a bad idea to physically try to stop a uniformed cop from doing whatever he's trying to do. The courts are predisposed to side with them, and they will charge you with assaulting a cop and whatever else they can find.

The remedy for unlawful searches is to loudly refuse to consent, try to attract the attention of witnesses, and seek vindication later in the courts in civil suits.

The exception to this is that sometimes a person in uniform is not a cop. If you have reasonable, articulable doubts about the scruffy guy in the partial cop uniform getting out of an unmarked Honda Civic with a Jennings .380 as his sidearm, then roll the dice and take your chances; I'd rather go to court for resisting an unjustified arrest than be found dead in a ditch. Women in particular need to keep this in mind, that if a cop seems intent on pulling you from your car or off the street and you've committed no crime at all, then use your head. Look at his vehicle, look at his uniform and demeanor, see if he's in contact by radio with a dispatcher. Ask for a second officer before you unlock the door and get out, police impersonators USUALLY act alone (except the drug gangs, they seem to have marked cars and SWAT gear and full squads of impersonators when they do home invasions.)

Bottom line, though, is that you don't usually want to debate the law with a cop on the street. He won't agree with you, and his version of things will change when you're on trial. Refuse consent on the scene, avoid physical scuffles, and get your lawyer involved as soon as possible.

[87th PVI]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

In actual practice in the real world, it's a bad idea to physically try to stop a uniformed cop from doing whatever he's trying to do. The courts are predisposed to side with them, and they will charge you with assaulting a cop and whatever else they can find.

The remedy for unlawful searches is to loudly refuse to consent, try to attract the attention of witnesses, and seek vindication later in the courts in civil suits.

The exception to this is that sometimes a person in uniform is not a cop. If you have reasonable, articulable doubts about the scruffy guy in the partial cop uniform getting out of an unmarked Honda Civic with a Jennings .380 as his sidearm, then roll the dice and take your chances; I'd rather go to court for resisting an unjustified arrest than be found dead in a ditch. Women in particular need to keep this in mind, that if a cop seems intent on pulling you from your car or off the street and you've committed no crime at all, then use your head. Look at his vehicle, look at his uniform and demeanor, see if he's in contact by radio with a dispatcher. Ask for a second officer before you unlock the door and get out, police impersonators USUALLY act alone (except the drug gangs, they seem to have marked cars and SWAT gear and full squads of impersonators when they do home invasions.)

Bottom line, though, is that you don't usually want to debate the law with a cop on the street. He won't agree with you, and his version of things will change when you're on trial. Refuse consent on the scene, avoid physical scuffles, and get your lawyer involved as soon as possible.

LOL with that description, I totally pictured a friend of mine pulling over some hottie...He'd never do that of course, but I don't know many people with Jennings .380s & aren't we all scruffy sometimes...if you'd have said VW GTI, then I'd have been worried!

[cobra2411]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

The remedy for unlawful searches is to loudly refuse to consent, try to attract the attention of witnesses, and seek vindication later in the courts in civil suits.

I start off being very polite and as non-confrontational as I can. It's a good idea to have a recording device with you, but these days most cop cars have dash cams. Assume everything the officer is asking you is a request. Politely decline all requests you don't agree with, ie "let me see your gun". If the officer pushes the issue, comply to his orders under duress.

When you pursue the officer for violating your protected 4th and 5th amendment rights, specifically unreasonable search and depriving you of your property without the due process of law, one of his defenses will likely be that you consented. Duress voids that claim of consent.

You have to keep in mind that the person you are dealing with has a gun, tazer, pepper spray, baton, etc and a radio to call reinforcements. There are good cops out there, but there are also bad ones as well as nut jobs. You never know who you're dealing with so you always have to be prepared for the worst. First rule is to always be polite and non-threatening. I really like the idea of having backup present; that's a great idea. Make them call in another officer, this way you're pretty sure it's not a nut job and it may temper an unruly officer. Stand firm on your rights, but don't become belligerent about it. The minute you develop a crappy attitude, everyone is going to start siding with the cop.

[mgortel]

You handled yourself vey well....

As for the cops sincerely "not knowing if it was legal......", in my opinion people that don't know the law should not be enforcing it.....especially the laws concerning something like the carrying of firearms......incompetance does not excuse them...period. What the fuck are we paying all these taxes for...to have officers on the street that don't know the laws they are supposed to be enforcing...give me a break.

[mrjam2jab]

I see this is already a year old...but since folks are still responding...

I havent read all 22 pages of posts...

Originally Posted by truecrimson

He patted down my pockets only and looked around my belt. Then he took out a notebook and began writing down information from my ID and LTCF. He stepped back and made a radio call, but I couldn't hear what he was saying.
Me: "Can I put my arms down?"
Officer 1: "Yes"
Me: "Mind if I take some notes too?"
Officer 1: "Go ahead. Need a pen?"
Me: "Got one. I just didn't want to reach into a pocket suddenly."
Officer 1 laughing: "I already checked you, I know you don't have anything."

You: Yeah, but you couldnt find my LTCF in my wallet.

[PA Traveler]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

... and his version of things will change when you're on trial....

I'm sure this is true.... what to do about it always perplexes me. This is particularly since I recently heard an attorney who is supposed to be firearms knowledgeable make the statement "It is illegal to (voice) record a police officer with out his consent as PA is a 'two-party consent' state."

And my search-fu is failing me. Comment or thread references?

[kadar]

Originally Posted by PA Traveler

I'm sure this is true.... what to do about it always perplexes me. This is particularly since I recently heard an attorney who is supposed to be firearms knowledgeable make the statement "It is illegal to (voice) record a police officer with out his consent as PA is a 'two-party consent' state.'

And my search-fu is failing me. Comment or thread references?

Here you go:

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...police-pa.html (Audio/video taping police in PA)
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...n-non-leo.html (Audio recording question. NON leo.)

[PA Traveler]

Thank you Sir!