LEO encounter at Home Depot in Allentown

[camper]

Wow, the cop said that the OP said he did NOT have a permit, but the OP was able to provide a copy of the permit the OP had on his person? Are they for real????

When is the trial, I can't wait to read how this unfolds. HOpefully the jury will have at least one gun enthusiast.

camper

[GunLawyer001]

The case would seem to hinge on whether peaceable open carry, without more, is sufficient to provide reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal activity.

Sadly for the officer and the department, that's already been settled, in the negative.

Sometimes, you just need to settle these cases, when you've failed to train an officer in an aspect of settled law, and he acts in violation of that law. Cops are human beings, and can't know every nuance of the law, but the burden of paying for the consequences of the gaps should fall on the city or the officer, who had the chance to teach or learn the law. The ignorance of officers shouldn't be just one of those urban hazards that citizens are randomly injured by, like potholes and rats and traffic jams. If Allentown skimps on training its officers, then the savings should be offset by the cost of the harm caused by ignorance.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

The case would seem to hinge on whether peaceable open carry, without more, is sufficient to provide reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal activity.

Sadly for the officer and the department, that's already been settled, in the negative.

yeah...that's what i was thinking the whole time while reading their response.

their defense is predicated almost entirely on terry...but what crime did the officer have supsicion of? i'd love to hear their answer to that question...

and their assertion that the plaintiff somehow started the incident by legally shopping at home depot is downright funny.

[headcase]

ELEVENTH AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE
Plaintiff’s right to bear arms, in this case, is based upon state law and not federal law. The County of Lehigh issued Plaintiff a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
6
Case 5:08-cv-05624-TMG Document 3 Filed 01/05/2009 Page 6 of 8

I wonder if they can ask for a mistrial based upon their attorney's incompetence? Last I checked, no county, or city of the first class, issued permits to carry concealed weapons.

So let me get this straight, their defense is going to be that, even in the face of caselaw to the contrary, because they feel OC is equivilent to terroristic threatening or disorderly conduct, their officer had every right to do what he did? Is that about right?

Hey TC, when this is over, remember who your true internet friends are...and that they may not have an AR they desperately need...

[Zef_66]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

yeah...that's what i was thinking the whole time while reading their response.

their defense is predicated almost entirely on terry...but what crime did the officer have supsicion of? i'd love to hear their answer to that question...

and their assertion that the plaintiff somehow started the incident by legally shopping at home depot is downright funny.

I wasn't sure of the exact determination of Terry v Ohio, so I looked it up:

Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and searches him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.

In a summary, there it is. So your right, unless the cop had a reasonable suspicion that the OP was doing, had done, or was about to do something illegal, then they have no case. And if the cop did have that suspicion, they failed to mention that in their reply.

[HbgHKFan]

Just to set the stage I am a new gun owner and have never carried before, open or concealed. I have an app in for an LTCF and will eventually concealed carry. I am for gun rights. I am no expert, but I think I understand the laws on OC and CC in PA and I'm learning more everyday.

I'll probably get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for this but... when I read about an incident like this it makes me think, "why would I open carry then anway?" If anything less or more of magnitude in relation to this incident is likely to happen, and I have an LTCF, I might as well conceal carry the whole time!

I know it's my right to open carry, and I believe in promoting our legal rights and advocating for law abiding citizens. But if society can't handle it and people are gonna freak out and call the police, why bother? Why set yourself up for the stress and all that crap the OP had to go through at the Home Depot? If he had been CC that day he would have had his tool set and been out the door and no one would have noticed!

Yes, I know, then the police and HD employees wouldn't have learned a lesson about the laws, and we wouldn't be standing up for our rights. I'm just saying, personally to me it's not worth the stress and anxiety. Plus, like this incident, you are now on record with the local police department and possibly the feds. And who knows, police are weird and might do weird stuff like mark you in the computer for other police in the future in case you are pulled over or anything. That would make me feel targeted by police and uncomfortable.

By all means, please continue to proudly open carry and advocate gun rights. If you have no worries about putting yourself up for encounter's, then more power to you! Please, I don't want to tick anyone off by this or tell anyone how to carry or express their gun rights!

[Zef_66]

Originally Posted by HbgHKFan

Just to set the stage I am a new gun owner and have never carried before, open or concealed. I have an app in for an LTCF and will eventually concealed carry. I am for gun rights. I am no expert, but I think I understand the laws on OC and CC in PA and I'm learning more everyday.

I'll probably get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for this but... when I read about an incident like this it makes me think, "why would I open carry then anway?" If anything less or more of magnitude in relation to this incident is likely to happen, and I have an LTCF, I might as well conceal carry the whole time!

I know it's my right to open carry, and I believe in promoting our legal rights and advocating for law abiding citizens. But if society can't handle it and people are gonna freak out and call the police, why bother? Why set yourself up for the stress and all that crap the OP had to go through at the Home Depot? If he had been CC that day he would have had his tool set and been out the door and no one would have noticed!

Yes, I know, then the police and HD employees wouldn't have learned a lesson about the laws, and we wouldn't be standing up for our rights. I'm just saying, personally to me it's not worth the stress and anxiety. Plus, like this incident, you are now on record with the local police department and possibly the feds. And who knows, police are weird and do weird stuff like mark licensed carrier in the computer for other police in the future in case you are pulled over or anything. That would make me feel targeted by police and uncomfortable.

By all means, please continue to proudly open carry and advocate gun rights. If you have no worries about putting yourself up for encounter's, then more power to you! Please, I don't want to tick anyone off by this or tell anyone how to carry or express their gun rights!

First off, welcome to the forum.

I understand you are new here, so I will let you know that this has been discussed many times before. There are tons of threads about OC and its pros and cons. I will let someone else find them for you.

But this thread is for discussing the event at Home Depot, not for discussing OC in general. The OP decided to do something completely legal and was harassed by the police. So before it gets too out of hand, I am going to ask:

Please keep discussions in this thread pertaining to this incident and OC vs CC discussions in appropriate threads.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by HbgHKFan

Just to set the stage I am a new gun owner and have never carried before, open or concealed. I have an app in for an LTCF and will eventually concealed carry. I am for gun rights. I am no expert, but I think I understand the laws on OC and CC in PA and I'm learning more everyday.

I'll probably get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for this but... when I read about an incident like this it makes me think, "why would I open carry then anway?" If anything less or more of magnitude in relation to this incident is likely to happen, and I have an LTCF, I might as well conceal carry the whole time!

I know it's my right to open carry, and I believe in promoting our legal rights and advocating for law abiding citizens. But if society can't handle it and people are gonna freak out and call the police, why bother? Why set yourself up for the stress and all that crap the OP had to go through at the Home Depot? If he had been CC that day he would have had his tool set and been out the door and no one would have noticed!

Yes, I know, then the police and HD employees wouldn't have learned a lesson about the laws, and we wouldn't be standing up for our rights. I'm just saying, personally to me it's not worth the stress and anxiety. Plus, like this incident, you are now on record with the local police department and possibly the feds. And who knows, police are weird and might do weird stuff like mark you in the computer for other police in the future in case you are pulled over or anything. That would make me feel targeted by police and uncomfortable.

By all means, please continue to proudly open carry and advocate gun rights. If you have no worries about putting yourself up for encounter's, then more power to you! Please, I don't want to tick anyone off by this or tell anyone how to carry or express their gun rights!

No tomatoes. If you don't feel the need, for whatever reason, to OC, then don't do it. The OP chose to OC, as is his right. For doing so, he was illegally detained, harassed, and was oppressed.

As far as being put on some kind of target list, IDK about that, but if it concerns you, then by all means do not make yourself a target of possible PD retaliation.

I always stress to people who want to OC, that they should be prepared for the possibilities. As your post proves, it is not for everyone. As for why bother? Well, some of us bother for the very simple reason that we should be able to do so without being bothered.

[kurt 10/22]

Originally Posted by Zef_66

First off, welcome to the forum.

I understand you are new here, so I will let you know that this has been discussed many times before. There are tons of threads about OC and its pros and cons. I will let someone else find them for you.

But this thread is for discussing the event at Home Depot, not for discussing OC in general. The OP decided to do something completely legal and was harassed by the police. So before it gets too out of hand, I am going to ask:

Please keep discussions in this thread pertaining to this incident and OC vs CC discussions in appropriate threads.

Well said sir! Rep sent.

[normanvin]

Originally Posted by Zef_66

First off, welcome to the forum.

I understand you are new here, so I will let you know that this has been discussed many times before. There are tons of threads about OC and its pros and cons. I will let someone else find them for you.

But this thread is for discussing the event at Home Depot, not for discussing OC in general. The OP decided to do something completely legal and was harassed by the police. So before it gets too out of hand, I am going to ask:

Please keep discussions in this thread pertaining to this incident and OC vs CC discussions in appropriate threads.

Good post...........