LEO encounter at Home Depot in Allentown

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

This may be an unpopular viewpoint here, but I can place myself in the position of a storeowner and I really can't say exactly where I'd draw the line on visible guns.

Not unpopular at all. Private property remains just that. If the store owner doesn't want OC on his property he can ask the gunguy to leave or if he is afraid, call the cops and ask the cops to ask the gunguy to leave. If the gunguy leaves after being asked, that should end it. After that, gunguy will likely take his business elsewhere as is his choice. As you know, where we go off the tracks here is when off-duty-cop takes it upon himself to hassle gunguy unlawfully and almost comically calls for backup to make sure there will be plenty of defendants to pay any judgement for the civil rights suit to come.

But three young guys walk in, not talking, very serious looking, each with a gun stashed in his waistband, then they take up positions where they seem to be covering the exits and watching the cashier....I'm calling the cops and racking the slide on my own piece.

I'd agree with that approach. Common sense need not fly out the window just because three thugs haven't started their robbery yet. Of course when the cops show up, however, they had better have RAS if they plan to detain rather than just ask the guys what's up or just observe and remain a "presence." If they observe everything you just described, I think you've described a valid RAS which would allow them to detain and investigate to either confirm or allay their suspicions. Likely at least one of the guys has an outstanding want or warrant so at least their trip wouldn't be wasted.

Having a gun is not enough to suspect a robbery, any more than having a dick is enough to suspect rape.

Hmm, how can I work that quote into my next brief or motion.

[Adam-12]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

Hmm, how can I work that quote into my next brief or motion.

Making it personal helps get the point across. Maybe phrase it something like, "Your honor never leaves his home without the necessary equipment to rape. We respectfully submit that this by itself does not furnish reasonable articulable suspicion to detain your honor or confiscate said equipment."









You can use that one free of charge.

[stephpd]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Some guy in a suit walks in, with his wife and 2.3 children, pleasant smile on his yuppie face, and he looks for the widget aisle and grabs a cart, and he has a pistol on his hip in a nice shiny leather rig....I'm not worried. But three young guys walk in, not talking, very serious looking, each with a gun stashed in his waistband, then they take up positions where they seem to be covering the exits and watching the cashier....I'm calling the cops and racking the slide on my own piece.

I saw something like this just the other day in a convenience store. Not the guns but the behavior. Brought me right to condition orange. Did my shopping and got out of there as quick as possible.

It's not the gun but the behavior that seems to be the bigger factor.

The OP didn't seem to have that behavior. Just shopping, even had to put the tools back while dealing with the LEO.

[cobra2411]

Lots of great stuff in here...

Here's my .02...

#1 above all else is to remain calm and be polite. Fighting or arguing with the cops will get you places you don't want to go... The cops are doing their job the way they believe is correct and you're not going to change that by yelling at them.

#2 assert your rights. The OP did this by saying "I do not consent to this." There are important things that you want on record just in case things go wrong. By being clear that you do not consent or by asking to leave, etc you are making sure the officer can not revert back to "consensual contact". If he detains or arrests you wrongfully you have something to go on. But again be polite. I once had an officer ask to search my car and I declined. He immediately told me he was going to search my car no matter what I said. I responded "you can do what ever you want, I'm not going to stop you, but I do not consent to a search." He didn't search the car.

#3 control the conversation. The easiest way to take control of a conversation / situation is to be the one asking questions, not the one answering them. So instead of telling an officer that OC is legal, you can ask "did you know that there are no restrictions on OC while on foot?"

#4 remember your rights. 4th, 5th and 6th. Do not consent to searches if you feel it's not warranted. Do not answer questions if don't want to. And if things are really heading south request counsel. It's best to say as little as possible, especially at first. When you do talk, try and ask questions or assert your rights. If the officer is getting aggressive, loud, abrupt, etc, pause and use the silence to your advantage. I'm not talking a short pause here either. Stay silent for 10, 20, 30 seconds or more. Most people underestimate how powerful silence can be. Most people are compelled to fill blank spaces and it's one of the ways to get information. Ask a question and after you receive an answer, stay quiet. The other person is almost always going to be compelled to add more.

#5 follow through. No matter how well things have gone, if you feel that items were mishandled follow up with the PD so that it doesn't happen again. This can be a friendly chat with the chief to a formal complaint to an all out lawsuit. This is how you address issues, not fighting in the field. Bring them documentation that shows that a "man with a gun" is not sufficient to detain someone and the minute the person decline's contact they have to drop it unless they have something else to go on. There is a distinct difference between a law abiding person OC and a criminal with a gun.

All in all I think the OP handled the situation well, just make sure there is follow through so it doesn't happen again.

Attached is a training memo for the police. I forget where I got it from, but it's very good info...

[chrisjames_71]

Originally Posted by cobra2411

Attached is a training memo for the police. I forget where I got it from, but it's very good info...

I'd venture to say you got it from here, sure looks like the one posted here...

[cobra2411]

Thanks for this post. Next time an employee comes up to me to ask if I need help finding something, I am going to say "NO, I'M NOT HERE TO STEAL ANYTHING....THANKS ANYWAY!!!"

Na... Ask something more useful like "Which one of these has a security tag inside?" Or "How much of this do you think I can hide under my coat?"

[cobra2411]

Originally Posted by chrisjames_71

I'd venture to say you got it from here, sure looks like the one posted here...

My phone went nuts as I was trying to finish my post. I saw I had attached it, but my train of thought was gone so I did a quick edit and got back to work... I realized later that I did get it here...

Also finished reading the thread, keep us posted on the suite. Also, regarding the costs, you do not need a lawyer to file or prosecute a case. It's easier, but I'm sure there are lawyers out there that will be willing to let you do the leg work and just have them show up. Fee's this way would certainly lower. Posting the complaint like PA Patriot did really helps.

[indianjack]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

Hmm, how can I work that quote into my next brief or motion.

Why would it be hard to work your dick into your briefs?

[NY Refugee]

Some guy in a suit walks in, with his wife and 2.3 children, pleasant smile on his yuppie face, and he looks for the widget aisle and grabs a cart, and he has a pistol on his hip in a nice shiny leather rig....I'm not worried. But three young guys walk in, not talking, very serious looking, each with a gun stashed in his waistband, then they take up positions where they seem to be covering the exits and watching the cashier....I'm calling the cops and racking the slide on my own piece.

I have to agree and disagree with this. Many people have what we would consider an unrealistic fear of you have a gun then you are up to no good.
This may be increased by people in retail who are young or consistently reminded to be on the look out for potential problems.
We in this group are gun friendly and understand or should understand the laws and reality that the majority of people with guns are actually the good guys/upstanding citizens.
To many people stereo type and that is what leads to problems. Our issue is consistently standing up for our rights while being respectful of others rights and people who are doing their job (ie the store employee that calls PD because the manger hates guns and tells them to, but does not have the guts to deal with the issue themselves, or the LEO who is assigned the call and is just trying to figure out what is going on and clear the issue up).
I will say that is this case it sounds if the LEO was at best on a power trip.
and needed to be reminded of what civil service means.

And this in my opinion is not a CC vs OC issue, as the same thing could have/may have happened if the HD employee noticed some one cc printing.

Anyway, go get'um.

[BlownNitroPontiac]

Originally Posted by NY Refugee

people who are doing their job (ie the store employee that calls PD because the manger hates guns and tells them to, but does not have the guts to deal with the issue themselves.)

I've gotta tell ya....retail managers don't make a whole lot of money. I doubt that it would equate to the sort of money that would compensate me, as a retail manager, for confronting a man with a gun.

Nope. Me, I'd delegate!