Sick of Open Carry Harassment by Cops? READ THIS!

[Gray Peterson]

Folks,

I think we are at a situation where there's a critical mass of people who are simply sick and tired of the harassment, intimidation, and threatening by sheriffs departments, police departments, and their officers on the streets who keep saying " I will have your LTCF revoked!", "Open Carry was illegal".

I want to give you folks my own history on this issue.

In Washington State, I had complained bitterly about law enforcement officers enforcing their own version of the law. This is the same in Oregon.

In Washington, we have RCW 9.41.270, which has been an albatross around open carriers necks in Washington for the last 35 years. The courts certainly didn't interpret this as an open carry ban, the cops did however, to a lot of detriment. People were being arrested for open carry, and then being cut loose, being warned "don't do it again", when it reality the City Prosecutors asked the PD why they arrested them for something that was legal.

At one point in 2006, I decided to stop complaining, and tried figuring out a way to make open carry harassment grind to a halt. Getting an AG opinion myself wasn't an option, and talking to the cops on the street wasn't a good idea either.

So I decided to couch the issue into a different way. Instead of looking like a person asking for permission or a personal legal opinion, I sent in my concerns as a resident of the city where the harassment was occurring, and coached it in a "professional standards/internal affairs" matter.

What do I mean? Law enforcement agencies usually have standard operating procedures and protocols, punishment for going beyond those protocols, and so on. Those policies, procedures, and protocols, at least insofar as contacts with the public, require a reliance on legal advice by the City Attorney's Office (and if a state law is involved, the City Attorney's Office will call the state AG's office too).

In the case of Federal Way, the City Attorney's office were the ones asking the questions of why arrests were being made. Though certainly we've had bad city attorney's, they're usually very rare and actually know the law so well that they often have to correct the cops on this issue multiple times.

As a result, Federal Way issued a training bulletin. You may view it here.

All it took was one citizen to come forward to the PD and say "folks, your officers don't know what's legal". When I emailed Federal Way PD, I gave them the authorities. You folks in the Keystone have not just one, but TWO State Supreme Court cases backing you.

As a result of my method, and taking that training bulletin across Washington to the agencies in the same way, 7 agencies issued a training bulletin, and probably 2 dozen more agencies are going to issue the advisory.

What'll likely happen is this:

1) You contact the PD (I would call and ask who is in charge of training or professional standards)
2) The PD contacts the City/County Attorney to see if what you sent was sound
3) They issue a training advisory/bulletin to their officers as the laws with open carry and carry in general, where are the prohibited places, carry in cars, and so on.

I can draft up a Pennsylvania Style bulletin if I need to, if you folks need a template. However, you have to do the legwork.

Anyone up for it?

[knight0334]

The harassment thing isn't a problem in my area, but I'm sure someone here could use any support that you could offer.

So feel free to draft something up..

Thank you.

[danp]

Tagging this thread so that I can discuss it at a later time. I have to take off for the day.

[fultonCoShooter]

Why would you want to open carry anyway?

I dont see the point! Someone could easily sneek up on u and take your firearm, a bad guy will see it, and there goes the element of surprise. A Permit in Pa is $25.00 and depending where you are in the state you can get one in less than 15 mins.

you can open carry in most of Pa. dont know why you would but you can.

but if you get in the car with it your breaking the law.

so just pay the 5 bucks a year (5 year 25 dollar permit) and conceal your weapon no one will know you have it and noone will say shit to you. Ive been in line at sheetz with a state trooper behind me....he didnt know i had a 9mm, now if i was open carrying im sure he would have be alittle suspect of me. Yes it legal to open carry but if i was a cop and i saw joe smoe with a gun on his hip i would want to know what the hell they were thinking, Prolly after i pulled him/her over for driving with a loaded firearm(without permit) which is a felony. If they had a permit i would tell them the dangers of open carry.

[TrybalRage]

Because I can, that's why. I don't need a better reason. That's the beauty of it.

[fultonCoShooter]

Originally Posted by TrybalRage

Because I can, that's why. I don't need a better reason. That's the beauty of it.

cause you can what? if you mean open carry

i would like to correct you! you cannot open carry in Philly without a permit

[rwilson452]

Originally Posted by fultonCoShooter

Why would you want to open carry anyway?

I dont see the point! Someone could easily sneek up on u and take your firearm, a bad guy will see it, and there goes the element of surprise. A Permit in Pa is $25.00 and depending where you are in the state you can get one in less than 15 mins.

I don't think so

you can open carry in most of Pa. dont know why you would but you can..

Because it's the law.

Originally Posted by fultonCoShooter

but if you get in the car with it your breaking the law..

OK, don't get in the car packing it, Simple

Originally Posted by fultonCoShooter

so just pay the 5 bucks a year (5 year 25 dollar permit) and conceal your weapon no one will know you have it and noone will say shit to you. Ive been in line at sheetz with a state trooper behind me....he didnt know i had a 9mm, now if i was open carrying im sure he would have be alittle suspect of me. Yes it legal to open carry but if i was a cop and i saw joe smoe with a gun on his hip i would want to know what the hell they were thinking, Prolly after i pulled him/her over for driving with a loaded firearm(without permit) which is a felony. If they had a permit i would tell them the dangers of open carry.

I just might feel the urge to remark, "If it's so dangerous, Why do police open carry?"

If you remark back because of your training, I might double over with laughter.


I presume your not an LEO. I know how much training an LEO receives on average, at least around here. I exceeded that level before most of the LEOs around here could spell training.

[KeithPA]

If you would like to draft something up I'd be more than happy to stop my local officials offices.

I don't see people sneaking up on cops and taking their guns off them. Maybe in the movies, but I don't think there are that many people out there that have the skill or balls to try soemthing like that.

ETA: Does anyone have the full text of Hawkins or Ortiz, I can't find them anywhere on the net, just those famous snipets.

[fultonCoShooter]

Originally Posted by rwilson452

Because it's the law.



OK, don't get in the car packing it, Simple



I just might feel the urge to remark, "If it's so dangerous, Why do police open carry?"

LMAO okie man settle down!

"so dont get in the car packing heat you say"

I say thats alot of loading and unloading if you out shopping or something


now as for your comment about if its so dangerous why do cops do it?

well... if you had a choice to blindside a cop and take his gun OR blindside some guy that has a gun on his hip and take it from him.

most people would pick some random guy with a gun


you seam pretty headstrong for open carrying.

Im sorry i dont agree with you. Im sorry i feel open carrying is just plain dumb AND has no PROS to weigh out the CONS.

I mean Geesh just pay the $25 bucks it good for five years and you wont have to unload and load and unload and load getting in and out of the car.

because between me you and the internet you know you dont unload it and then reloaded when you get in and outta of the car thats a ton if you carry everyday............and if your not carrying everyday ....why even carry at all, Its not like you just wake up on day and say i better carry today because today is the day ill need a gun.

[yobos4vr]

you would also pick the average joe because his holster is an easy grab while cop's level 3 retention will give him enough time to fight.
as for why to open carry? well the classic- rights are like muscle's you need to exercise them so you don't lose them.