Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by rev214

i blogged it as well, if anything just to get it out there in google searches...

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=224769

found this via google

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Petalpusher

The existing law with respect to searches such as the one conducted in
this case is based on Terry v. Ohio, supra, which held that police are
authorized under the Fourth Amendment to stop and temporarily detain citizens
short of an arrest when they can point to "specific and articulable facts"
causing them to have a reasonable suspicion that "criminal activity may be
afoot." .

Right. Hawkins establishes that an open carried weapon does not equal suspicion of criminal activity.

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by normanvin

I don't know if it has happened or will happen but Patrolman Tony Mariano had told us before he left that the people who had complained would be contacted to say that no laws were broken.

I wish there was a way to confirm these calls were made.

Did anyone from the other night mention that two of the ocb managers were also carrying concealed. Ironic.

It was me.

As for the officer he told us in the vestibule he knew the law and knew we were not breaking any laws as OC is legal in the state. He stated the same outside, and again when we were leaving to get Rich and we were standing by the Cop car.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by CQB

For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person's outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on “specific and articulable facts” and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to in short as a “stop and frisk”, or simply a “Terry stop”. The Terry standard was later extended to temporary detentions of persons in vehicles, known as traffic stops.
.......

This skips an important step, and mixes up the elements. BEFORE the Terry stop can be initiated, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot. Without that reasonable suspicion, no Terry stop can be done at all, no detention can be caused, no lawful orders can issue. There MUST be some reason to think that a crime has happened, like a person holding a crowbar next to a pried-open door, or a man wearing a ski mask in a car idling in front of a bank.

If it seems likely that some articulable crime has occurred, THEN the officer can do a quick pat-down for weapons "for his own safety" during the course of the interview. Removing documents from pockets does NOT fall within a Terry search, since they could not be weapons.

Merely being peaceably armed while eating dinner with one's family, with the weapon visible or not, has nothing to do with allowing a Terry stop & frisk. The officer can approach and try to talk to anyone, just like you or I can walk up to anyone and try to converse, but anyone has the right to refuse to talk. It's only when there's that reasonable suspicion of criminal activity that the officer has the right to put his or her hooves on you.

This incident was all wrong from the beginning. The officers had no right to pull people out of the restaurant, they had no right to do a Terry frisk, they had no right to go beyond the Terry frisk and seize weapons and papers and wallets and whatever else. They had no right to accost peaceable diners and "make sure that they were legal" in the absence of any reasonable suspicion that criminal activity was afoot, they have no right to search citizens and take their guns and run the serial numbers in the absence of any possible suspicion that they were stolen or unlawfully transferred (and how exactly would they get such a reasonable suspicion from a plain view of a holstered weapon?), and they sure as hell don't have the right to seize and keep firearms simply because they are not "registered" to the owner in the "thing that the PSP swears is not a registry".

[gf45acp]

Great post GL!

[TaurusGuy]

I am taking my daughter fishing so we can bond and I can try to make up to her what happened the other night....but....we need to put a speed limit on this thread! Every time I step away and come back, there's new stuff here. I was away for a few hours yesterday and came back to 112 new pages! (LOL! Ok, not quite but close)

[kevinmch]

Originally Posted by TaurusGuy

I am taking my daughter fishing so we can bond and I can try to make up to her what happened the other night....but....we need to put a speed limit on this thread! Every time I step away and come back, there's new stuff here. I was away for a few hours yesterday and came back to 112 new pages! (LOL! Ok, not quite but close)

Nice....nothin like a good day of fishing to clear the head. Enjoy; hope your daughter is A-OK after her bad experience. Is there a proper place on the website for fishing reports? Maybe with range reports, lol.

[doug]

Originally Posted by kevinmch

Nice....nothin like a good day of fishing to clear the head. Enjoy; hope your daughter is A-OK after her bad experience. Is there a proper place on the website for fishing reports? Maybe with range reports, lol.

The lounge, as it's off topic

[policemedic]

Originally Posted by CQB

For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person's outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on “specific and articulable facts” and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to in short as a “stop and frisk”, or simply a “Terry stop”. The Terry standard was later extended to temporary detentions of persons in vehicles, known as traffic stops.
<snip>
Or I can articulate (After violating your rights and you not knowing it) that the pipe that you had in your pocket was indeed a crack pipe. However I'm not permitted to take anything out of your pockets while cunducting a Terry Search. Terry search is for anything on the OUTSIDE/VIEWABLE area.

Simply being armed is not cause for a Terry Stop. Once stopped for a legitimate reason (e.g. a traffic violation) simply being armed is not cause for a frisk; the officer must fear for his safety. The two are not necessarily related.

Retrieving an object from a pocket is not necessarily prohibited, either. However, the officer must be able to articulate that he knew immediately upon feeling the outline of the object through the clothing that it was contraband. The ability of the officer to stand that up in court will depend on his experience...how many packages of crack have you handled in your 6 months in Dickson City, officer?

Had it been me responding to the call, I'd have walked in, said hi, and explained to all y'all that some concerned citizen called 911. I would then immediately grab a plate, hit the buffet, and sit down with you for dinner. Cops gotta eat too.

[policemedic]

Originally Posted by Petalpusher

A police officer can articulate that someone is up to no good because they have a weapon in plain sight.

It's a devils advocate game. Though the police know that they cannot do what they did, they, however, did it anyway. Case in point, they disarmed the people at OCB. They cannot do that, however, they did.

Actually, we can't use the fact that someone is visibly armed to articulate anything other than they are exercising their rights. The exception is in Philadelphia, because state law requires a LTCF to OC in Philly. That requirement generates a reason to stop a person and verify the LTCF. Outside the city, no dice. That is well-settled in PA law.