Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[sluggie24]

PA Patriot.....I'm sorry to read about what you had to go through but at the same time, and don't take this the wrong way, I'm glad it happened to you. I don't think we could ask for a better representative for us to fight this fight. IMHO you know more about firearms laws in PA than most of the rest of us put together. Now you can use that knowledge to school the police so this will hopefully not happen again.

I was also wondering if you were thinking on going after them for the illegal registration that they keep? Maybe force it into the light in court and the papers and show how the PSP is conducting an illegal activity?

Well no matter how far you choose to pursue the issue let us all know where we can donate money for your legal expenses if needed. Because what you do will help us all, I don't feel that you should have to shoulder the costs alone.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by TakDwn

...You've obviously taken the time to understand the laws regarding LTCF. Its an unfortunate thing to have happen, however I'm glad it happened to YOU. Now you have the ability to educate the ignorant.
{snip}.

Originally Posted by sluggie24

PA Patriot.....I'm sorry to read about what you had to go through but at the same time, and don't take this the wrong way, I'm glad it happened to you..{snip}

I have to chuckle at these comments. I have had conversations with other folks we would consider competent "activists" following reports of other members/folks being hassled and said "why doesn't this crap ever happen to US?"

Well, it happened. I guarantee everyone here and every firearms owner in PA, This will be used to the maximum benefit possible to PA firearms owners


Well, as you can tell I haven't been able to sleep tonight, so I've been prepping my notes. But I must now go try and get a couple hours sleep before my first customer arrives. Have fun and be safe in your Saturday OC/CC'ing

[gnbrotz]

I'd be curious to hear why only 1 participant was arrested for "failure to identify"? All present knew the legality of such a request, yet only one didn't cave to it. Did anyone even "refuse consent" before complying?

I know it can be hard to stand up against this type of abuse when alone, but IMO it would be easier in a group setting like this, especially when with someone who is as knowledgeable as Rich. I won't say "If I had been there.....", but I've damn sure thought about it.

[Damage control]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Thanks very, very much for the supportive comments. They are appreciated.
.

Rich,

My family was very upset about what happened, I wanted to come back to help apron asking your wife when leaving where when if I could help she told me it will be ok and to go. At this time I was told by the male responding officer where you were he stated you had been transported to LCP for booking and no need to show up because it was too late in the evening for you to make bail. I asked him what you were being charged with he said failyer to provide ID. I said officer he did identify himself but seeing he was not driving a car he does not have to show his operator’s license. He then stated He knows the law and you must provide ID when asked or your breaking the law. The next best thing I could think of was to come on line and try to drum up support and keep info sharing about your situation to a minimum.




That is all

DC

[normanvin]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

I'd be curious to hear why only 1 participant was arrested for "failure to identify"? All present knew the legality of such a request, yet only one didn't cave to it. Did anyone even "refuse consent" before complying?

I know it can be hard to stand up against this type of abuse when alone, but IMO it would be easier in a group setting like this, especially when with someone who is as knowledgeable as Rich. I won't say "If I had been there.....", but I've damn sure thought about it.

I was carrying concealed at this function. That is why I handed over my ltcf. If asked for my license they would have been out of luck, because I do not carry it on me.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Damage control

Rich,
The next best thing I could think of was to come on line and try to drum up support and keep info sharing about your situation to a minimum.

Thanks, DC. I'm sure I'm missing folks but I'm just still finding out about what folks were doing and what the responding officers were doing and telling them while I was sweating up my new slacks in the back of the patrol car.
Also I'm running a indy 500 race in my head right now Thanks for making the informative post on the board.

[Damage control]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Thanks, DC. I'm sure I'm missing folks but I'm just still finding out about what folks were doing and what the responding officers were doing and telling them while I was sweating up my new slacks in the back of the patrol car.
Also I'm running a indy 500 race in my head right now Thanks for making the informative post on the board.

So can you tell us what was being said on the radio while you were in the car?

Also I would like to say up until we were harrased my family and I enjoyed meeting all of you its nice to put faces with names. Rich my wife just said she would like to go out for dinner again with you and Judy but next time no kids.

DC

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

I have to chuckle at these comments. I have had conversations with other folks we would consider competent "activists" following reports of other members/folks being hassled and said "why doesn't this crap ever happen to US?"

Well, it happened. I guarantee everyone here and every firearms owner in PA, This will be used to the maximum benefit possible to PA firearms owners

Well it looks like the police picked on the wrong group to encounter without being fully versed in the law. I do recall a very recent supreme court case that says, exactly, you don't have to provide identification to police if the they have no reason to ask your identity.

There's another supreme court case that says OC, by itself, does not give the police reason to stop you (or by extension require identification).

There's another supreme court case that says, as GunLawyer already aluded to, that the PSP database is not a gun registry precisely because not all guns are required to be in it.

This is all supreme court precedent, not some obscure law buried in the books that the DA might not be expected to know and advise the police on immediately. If they don't know the law, they better call someone who does before they harrass innocent citizens. If they think they know more than they do, well they will suffer the legal consequences of swollen ego.

Whatever direction you choose to go with this, you are very clearly in the driver's seat.

Good job keeping cool while insisting that your rights be respected. To be honest, I don't think I could have done what you did, especially with wife and kids right there. I know they must be very, very proud of you. I know I am.

Often the only way to secure rights is to stand up for them and in a lot of cases, it takes a lot of stones to do that. All I can say is a big THANK YOU for having the courage to stand up for what you know is right.

This case is about more than gun rights. It's about the relationship between the people and the state. It's a textbook example as to why the law is precisely what it is. A bunch of guys are having dinner with friends and family, doing nothing illegal or even suspicious (OC is not suspicious -- PA Supreme Court says so) and the police disrupt that dinner and even illegally haul one of the guys under arrest, right in front of his wife and young children. Will those children ever be able to get the image of their daddy in cuffs being taken away by strangers when he has done nothing wrong out of their minds? I can't imagine what they must have made of all that. I'd expect a child in that situation to be darn near terrified and will very likely never have the same view of their own safety and that of their familiy and father again. In a lot of ways it is beyond outragous -- you can't even relax and have a nice dinner with family and friends without being harrassed by police, who also go as far as to traumatize your children!? I'm sure the police will apologize and like I said, you are behind the wheel on this one. They were just plain clearly very wrong.

[ChamberedRound]

Pa. Patriot,

Just read through the rest of this thread, and all I can say is... WOW. Just wow. This is a blatant abuse of police power, that's all I can say.

These police (and others who have commited similar offenses) have harassed you for no reason, and yet they are able to carry their weapons anywhere, anytime, for any reason, and get no resistance from anyone because of their status as police. Yet all of you there did nothing wrong, and gave no one any reason to think you would be a danger to anyone in the community, but you're harassed by law enforcement in front of your friends and family simply because you don't carry a badge? Amazing. Too bad they didn't check the law before they blindly listened to an unfounded complaint. I still can't believe the police took it as far as they did, especially when many of the attendees had girlfriends, wives, and children there.

Good luck to you, sir. Despite all that's happened, it seems you're in a good position from a legal perspective to get some satisfaction (or restitution).

One other thing to consider, if you haven't already: make sure in all of this that you prepare to fight a revocation of your LTCF, as it's possible the Sheriff will use your Disorderly Conduct arrest as grounds to claim your character is in question.

On an admisitrative note, I'm going to sticky this thread.

[1rcm]

As an ex-LEO I’m willing to say with certainty what most probably took place …. Two or three officers responded to a ‘man with gun’ call. Upon arrival they saw a whole gaggle of ‘man's (I guess woman’s too) with guns and called in the Calvary (kind of surprises me that there were only 8 cars as something like this around here would draw a ¼ County-wide response). Anyway, never having encountered this before and NOT being trained for it they kind of started out with the ‘I represent the law so here’s how this game will be played’ response (in-bread from the Academy). When PaPatriot didn’t play that same game the confusion began. They probably called some on-duty ranking officer who hadn’t a clue. Then the call got made to the Chief who also hadn’t a clue. Then to PSP who we all know from other encounters most times don’t have a clue. Then finally to the on-call DA who wouldn’t touch something like this without consulting with at least 3 other ADA’s and then his/her boss. Finally among all those calls someone piped-in that maybe no one really and LEGALLY knows the right answers to the REAL questions off hand as to what to do for sure right this minute so now it is time to try to start to save some face while still 'keeping the peace'. And then the Chief or ADA said exactly what I used to hear all too often …. “We’ll you guys are the ones on-scene … handle it the best you can for right now and we’ll work it later from there”.

When I was still on the job that’s undeniably how it would have gone down for me. For my ’20 in’ I honestly believed OC was quite problematic and would have told anyone I saw doing it to ‘cover it up if you have a permit’ or risk arrest for DC (yep, that old catch-all). Once I joined this forum my eyes got opened VERY wide. See the problem? Pretty bad-eah?

The bottom line here is there is a LOT of education that needs to be done on ‘gun carry’ in general all across the LEO community. And PA Patriot, my hat goes off to you as I sure do hope that with your incident school is about to be called into session. As a recent convert to jealously guarding my 2’d Amendment Rights (I even just recently joined the dreaded NRA) I sincerely applaud you and wish you nothing but great success!