Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by Pyrotek85

I cant' believe they're pulling this 'proof of ownership' crap with you. Let 'em have it.

Me either. Last I looked, the requirement was for the cops to prove it was stolen or illegal, not the other way around. Which is one reason I suggested the federal civil rights route. PA police are knowingly depending on an illegal database, and knowingly violating the US Constitution by siezing private property without evidence of a crime.

[BerksCountyDave]

So Rich,

What new guns are you going to buy with the money you get after you sue the hell out of the PD involved? Just wonderin'

[schr8er2000]

I have a feeling that there are going to be alot of SLIGHTLY USED firearms up for sale... by the Dickson City PD after this one....lol

[Pyrotek85]

Originally Posted by JoeWilliams

Me either. Last I looked, the requirement was for the cops to prove it was stolen or illegal, not the other way around. Which is one reason I suggested the federal civil rights route. PA police are knowingly depending on an illegal database, and knowingly violating the US Constitution by siezing private property without evidence of a crime.

That's how I see it. The burden of proof should always be on them. I wouldn't feel bad about them losing their jobs even, they know what they're doing is wrong.

[djturnz]

I am sorry to hear about this. Rich, you have my number. If there is anything you need me to do, let me know.

We have an OC lunch planned in a couple weeks. Hopefully ours won't be as eventful.

[Pa. Patriot]

Thanks very, very much for the supportive comments. They are appreciated.
This is my first negative experience, personally, with OC.
And while I was 100% in the right and the LEO were 100% in the wrong I have to admit that keeping your cool and sticking to your guns can be tough to do.
About the time that I told the LEO that my wife would not stop taping the incident I knew I was going to be arrested. I also knew that I needed to clarify to the officers, for the group, that NONE of them were obligated to show paper ID to them. They did not like this education and your aware of the result of that by now.

Anyway, in addition to the sincere thanks for the supportive comments I want to take a moment to personally thank normanvin, his wife Beverly, reverserboy, larrymeyer, couger(who wasn't even carrying). All of whom stuck around in anticipation of following down to the PD to bail me out. That's big. These guys had my back and I owe them a big debt of gratitude for that in addition to helping with keeping my wife occupied and even watching my two kids (age 6 and 3) while daddy was being arrested in view of them. Hopefully I didn't miss anyone. Oh, Rich and his wife were still there as well as taurusguy.
Speaking of which. taurusguy was violated big time. No details at this time, but they were completely out of line and threatened him with arrest for carrying 100% within the law a pistol that he obtained 100% legally.

Stay tuned folks. This one is going to be "big".

[normanvin]

Interesting night to say the least. I had a chance to meet more members of the board at this function then ever.

During the festivities one of the patrons of ocb had approached a small group of us to ask if oc was legal. He was given a small education and an oc pamphlet, with an open invite to check out the forum for much more info.

So pa patriot did you ever get fed last night?

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by normanvin

So pa patriot did you ever get fed last night?

After the conclusion of the leo schooling and resultant ass kissing (my ass) I went to Sheetz to gas up and grabbed a candy bar and a soda as my sugar was dangerously low (I have hyperglycemia) and then we proceeded to go to WalMart in Dickson city (promised wife and kids). I snacked and talked on the phone with obvious entities the whole time
Funny, no cops were called on my for OC'ig

Thanks again, Norm. For having my back and helping stand up to the LEO with my wife while I was conveniently placed in a patrol car safely out of their way.

Anyone doubting that the LEO will take the "leader" out so the can abuse the rest of the group needs get a dose of reality. They arrested me because I was interfering with the harassment they felt justified in conducting.

[GunLawyer001]

It's sad that some PD's are no better than this, that up to 8 officers combined have no better sense or grasp of the law than some Oprah viewer.

Police are certainly allowed (but not required) to respond to a call about a bunch of armed people eating dinner. They are responsible for what they do upon arrival, and they are responsible as a department and as individuals.

The rules of search and seizure don't allow the police to just grab anything that might "possibly" be evidence of a crime. I might have hit someone with my car, I might have sold drugs out of my house, I might have used a chainsaw to massacre a sorority, but in the absence of any evidence tending to make those things likely, if the cops seize my car or house or chainsaw, they are committing theft.

The State Police told the court that their database was not a "registry" because it was not complete. That's why it's not illegal for them to keep those records, according to the hacks on the court. So for anyone to seize a firearm because it's not in the registry (sorry, "database") is indefensible. They can't have it both ways, it's either an illegal registry, or we don't have a registry. They made their choice, now they have to live with it.

If the gun doesn't come back as stolen, then the fact that it's not linked to the citizen in the "database" means nothing. A firearm can be legally transferred between parent and child, grandparent and grandchild, between spouses, brought in to PA when the owner moves from out-of-state, or loaned to someone with a current LTCF. None of these requires a transfer through an FFL, so none of these would create a record in that database. It's simply an abuse of power for police to seize a firearm solely because the incomplete database has no record of it.

This may be a good time for a § 1983 action, for the detentions, the arrest, the searches and the seizures. You can carry your flyers around with your own interpretation of the law, and hope to educate cops, but a clipping from a newspaper discussing the lawsuit won against the last PD who hassled you would have a truly salutary effect on the behavior of the next cop.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

... if the cops seize my car or house or chainsaw, they are committing theft.

The firearm will be reported stolen to the PSP this morning.

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

If the gun doesn't come back as stolen, then the fact that it's not linked to the citizen in the "database" means nothing. A firearm can be legally transferred between parent and child, grandparent and grandchild, between spouses, brought in to PA when the owner moves from out-of-state, or loaned to someone with a current LTCF. None of these requires a transfer through an FFL, so none of these would create a record in that database. It's simply an abuse of power for police to seize a firearm solely because the incomplete database has no record of it.

Not to mention I AM AN FFL.

They've bitten off way more than they can chew

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

This may be a good time for a § 1983 action, for the detentions, the arrest, the searches and the seizures. You can carry your flyers around with your own interpretation of the law, and hope to educate cops, but a clipping from a newspaper discussing the lawsuit won against the last PD who hassled you would have a truly salutary effect on the behavior of the next cop.

I fully intend to make Dickson City PD the example for PA. This should be the last time we hear about people being detained/hassled/forced to show ID for OC as well as having their firearm stolen.