Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[Zef_66]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

I have a suspicion that many police officers have no idea about the truth behind the right to OC......and so therefore....they make mistakes. Happens in every job.

Doesn't make either party a bad person.

I agree that everyone makes mistakes. When I make a mistake at work, I make very accurate scrap metal. But when a surgeon makes a mistake, he can make a grave. When a cop makes a mistake, he can ruin someone's life by charging people incorrectly and making them look like a criminal when they are not.

Every job needs to be taken seriously. But some jobs have greater repercussions when mistakes are made. It is the LEO's job to know and uphold the law. When they fail at their job, it can't be simply shrugged off as a mistake. Proper training so it doesn't happen again and retributions for those violated need to be made. This in the same way a doctor should be held liable for mistakes and malpractice.

As for making anyone a bad person, no, that is not the case. I don't see these cops as bad people. I see them as misinformed LEO. They just are not properly trained. And it doesn't help that they had an attitude about it too. Again, to relate to me own job; If I make a mistake, screw up a job and scrap $10k worth of metal. I can't just say, whoops, that sucks and walk away. My boss would be furious. I need to talk to people to find out how I screwed up. Apologize for costing the company money, and correct my mistake. And then learn how not to make the same mistake twice. Why shouldn't LEOs be expected to do the same thing?

[Elmar]

How many incidents before you say enough is enough? One.

[Keith4001r]

Seems to me that Dave is sensitive to any perceived anti police sentiment. It may or may not be anti cop, but if Dave percieves it as such, he defends. Lots of folks will defend members of thier society, fraternity, etc., right or wrong. Methinks that may be what's going on here.

I grew up in the 70's, so my first instinct is to distrust the police. After all, Miranda states- "Anything you say will be used in court against you", not in your defense. I don't talk to police (in an official capacity) if I can help it.

Just this past weekend, I was present when a PSP officer sided with a Balto. Co. Detective in a domestic issue. He (PSP) was wrong (according to a District Justice), but we're talking cop to cop here. Closing ranks, Old Boy network, whatever you call it, it's us vs. them, and it's wrong.

So maybe before deciding someone is attacking the police, we should step out of the fraternity and see it with objective, non-insider eyes, not law officer eyes.

Just my $0.02.


Keith
PAFOA PROUD!

[Mtbkski]

Originally Posted by Elmar

How many incidents before you say enough is enough? One.

Would love to know how many INCIDENTS we have just listed on this sight.

Then how many have happened to those not on this sight that we never hear about.

Then how many to people in other states that have been stopped wrongly (Ohio incident comes to mind)

When?????? When can we do something about this and not look like the bad guys?

I'm with Elmar. Once is enough. Sue the pants off of them. And then the word will get around, and get around fast.

[PennsyPlinker]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

I have a suspicion that many police officers have no idea about the truth behind the right to OC......and so therefore....they make mistakes. Happens in every job.

Doesn't make either party a bad person.


LycantypeA'sthrope

It isn't making the initial mistake that is so bad, it is the insistence on plowing further down that row despite the evidence that the person is in the wrong. I was talking to an acquaintance about this yesterday and he told me he had a friend who was a cop, and if he caught me with my gun out in the open, he would run me in no matter what. I informed him that the law was the law, and not what some officer thought it should be, or would like it to be. His response was that the guy did not care, I would be arrested.

Now this is second hand information, and it may not be true of this one particular individual, but it seems to be true enough of enough people that it is a real problem. We are constantly told that ignorance of the law is no excuse. How much more should that be true for those charged with enforcing it?

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by PennsyPlinker

It isn't making the initial mistake that is so bad, it is the insistence on plowing further down that row despite the evidence that the person is in the wrong.

that's my issue with these types of cases. of course police officers are going to make mistakes...they are human. (although it is fairly inexcusable, imho, for any officer to not know something as basic as when ID is and is not required.)

my problem is that i rarely hear of cases where the officers or the department admit and take responsibility for it after the fact.

to me, a simple statement like:

"our officers misunderstood the laws regarding open carry in PA and, as a result, took inappropriate action against law abiding citizens. we apologize profusely for this mistake. although we cannot undo what happened, we are going to:

1. send an officer to immediately return mr. banks' unlawfully confiscated pistol to him.

2. train our officers regarding the legality of open carry,

3. train our dispatchers to prompt for further information on "man with a gun" calls and, if the caller does not allege any actual crime is taking place, to inform the caller that OC is not illegal.

4. ask the various media outlets that have covered the issue to publish a letter from us explaining what happened in this situation, how we erred, and that open carry is legal.

5. do everything we can to get MPOETC to include training regarding the legality of open carry as well as to better train officers in regards to the limits of terry stops and ID requirements.

while we cannot undo the past, we sincerely hope these actions will prohibit such injustices in the future as we strive to uphold and defend the rights of law abiding citizens."

if they had issued such a statement and actually followed through on it, i would personally not file a lawsuit or ask for any other punitive issues if it were my rights that had been violated.

but, of course, that is not at all how they reacted. instead, in what seems to me to be an all too typical reaction, they tried to defend and rationalize their illegal behavior while attempting to place the blame on the law abiding citizens.

man up, admit their mistake, take responsibility, and try to prevent it from happening in the future, and i will be more than happy to forgive them. try to justify their mistake and deflect blame, and i say nail them to the wall.

just my take on it.

[Elmar]

Thats how it should be done however government officials are used to wielding power, not recognizing that they bear a burden of responsibility. It is a totally different outlook.

[normanvin]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

that's my issue with these types of cases. of course police officers are going to make mistakes...they are human. (although it is fairly inexcusable, imho, for any officer to not know something as basic as when ID is and is not required.)

my problem is that i rarely hear of cases where the officers or the department admit and take responsibility for it after the fact.

to me, a simple statement like:

"our officers misunderstood the laws regarding open carry in PA and, as a result, took inappropriate action against law abiding citizens. we apologize profusely for this mistake. although we cannot undo what happened, we are going to:

1. send an officer to immediately return mr. banks' unlawfully confiscated pistol to him.

2. train our officers regarding the legality of open carry,

3. train our dispatchers to prompt for further information on "man with a gun" calls and, if the caller does not allege any actual crime is taking place, to inform the caller that OC is not illegal.

4. ask the various media outlets that have covered the issue to publish a letter from us explaining what happened in this situation, how we erred, and that open carry is legal.

5. do everything we can to get MPOETC to include training regarding the legality of open carry as well as to better train officers in regards to the limits of terry stops and ID requirements.

while we cannot undo the past, we sincerely hope these actions will prohibit such injustices in the future as we strive to uphold and defend the rights of law abiding citizens."

if they had issued such a statement and actually followed through on it, i would personally not file a lawsuit or ask for any other punitive issues if it were my rights that had been violated.

but, of course, that is not at all how they reacted. instead, in what seems to me to be an all too typical reaction, they tried to defend and rationalize their illegal behavior while attempting to place the blame on the law abiding citizens.

man up, admit their mistake, take responsibility, and try to prevent it from happening in the future, and i will be more than happy to forgive them. try to justify their mistake and deflect blame, and i say nail them to the wall.

just my take on it.

And take the dickson city 12 out for a nice quite dinner. "But that is not going to happen either"

[Lycanthrope]

Originally Posted by Zef_66

I agree that everyone makes mistakes. When I make a mistake at work, I make very accurate scrap metal. But when a surgeon makes a mistake, he can make a grave. When a cop makes a mistake, he can ruin someone's life by charging people incorrectly and making them look like a criminal when they are not.

Every job needs to be taken seriously. But some jobs have greater repercussions when mistakes are made. It is the LEO's job to know and uphold the law. When they fail at their job, it can't be simply shrugged off as a mistake. Proper training so it doesn't happen again and retributions for those violated need to be made. This in the same way a doctor should be held liable for mistakes and malpractice.

I'm all for job accountability. I have more responsibility than most in a very ambiguous field with life or death risks for others at times. Problems will still occur and that will never end.

My point for posting was that, depite mistakes....or even ignorance.....character attacks ....overtly or implied....help nothing.

Lycanaccountablethrope

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

5. do everything we can to get MPOETC to include training regarding the legality of open carry as well as to better train officers in regards to the limits of terry stops and ID requirements.

That right there is the effective and efficient way to fix this situation.

You get more bees with honey than with vinegar.

rep sent!