Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry ~ A paper by Garry E. Harvey

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Cole

Now, more and more this site has turned into an OC cheerleading site.

How so?
People are OC'ing in PA. You may not agree with it, but it is being done. It is a new resurgence of an old practice. As a result, people will talk about it. How is that "cheerleading'?

Originally Posted by Cole

I've been away for a little while with my cancer fight, so I'm still trying to process what I'm seeing here. That's why I'm asking for people's help in understanding things....

...Right now, if anything, I'm feeling pushed away by those fanatically pushing OC. I'd really like to understand, so I can help.

Originally Posted by Cole

Right now, I'm taking the leap of faith that you guys have practical reasons that make sense to me for OC.

Who is "Fanatically pushing" OC on you?

No one says you must OC or agree with OC. You will not be turned away because you CC. In contrast, OC'ers are often shunned by a few of the CC crowd.

"leap of faith"? ...This seems to suggestt that there is no way a rational person would OC. I find it odd that you keep stating you're "trying to understand" but yet insert various negative digs such as "cheerleading", "threatening", "fanatic pushing". It makes your inquisition seem somewhat disingenuous on the surface...IMO.
If you are seriously interested your not going to get amicable answers with that kind of subtly condescending questioning. What if my reasons do not "make sense" to you?

You don't have to agree with OC.
No one has forced you to do or believe anything. You have an opinion and others have a different opinion. Just because people do not agree with you does not mean they are forcing anything on you.


Back on topic...
Did you read the article?
In addition to the article, do a search on oc vs cc. It's been discussed to death many times over. Plenty of info about the thoughts on both sides.

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by Cole

snip


2. Openly displaying a gun as good manners is a matter of opinion. Agreed. At the same time, there are people who either speak up or don't who feel threatened by the "weirdo" at the WaWa walking around with a gun. This is a fact. In my opinion, it is good manners to carry concealed and avoid upsetting or scaring some people by displaying a gun.
snip

There are people who feel threatened when a black man walks into Wawa. Do good manners dictate that black men stop shopping in public stores? Should we return to "White Only" stores to keep someone from being scared, in the name of good manners? How bout Hispanics? Do good manners dictate that they should not shop in white stores? How bout gay men and women? LOTS of people scared of them.

Equally to the point, there are lots of people who are not only scared of OC, they are scared of the fact that you own guns at all. Good manners would seem to dictate that you must now destroy your guns. You cannot sell them, because then those people would be scared of whoever you sold them too.

I really don't think we need to base our ideals of good manners on the unfounded fears and cowardice of bigots, and those who do not support the rights of all of us. But if good manners would lead you to believe that we should not OC, I say again that those same standards should lead you to the realization that you cannot own guns, and must in fact advocate for the end to our 2nd Amendment rights.

[VMJade]

Originally Posted by Cole

First of all, in the gay community has the same sort of discussions inside their ranks that we're having here. There are gay people that choose to keep their personal lives . . . well, personal. There are those that toss condoms around in churches and disrupt masses. There are also a ton of people somewhere in the middle. To be honest, I think gay dudes do a better job of having intelligent debate about identifying common social and political aims and how they want to achieve them than we do.

As for my gay analogy, I didn't say OCers were gay. I said if gunners were gay, OCers would be the flamboyant, in your face drag queens.

Wow....Just...wow. Not quite.

OCers would, as I understand it, run the gamut. Some, yeah, if thery're OCing on a street corner handing out fliers and using a bullhorn to explain the 2nd amendment to everyone within 500 yards, then sure, they're like in your face draq queens.

However, if someone is going about their daily business, and happens to be OCing, I would strongly urge you to reconsider your words, sir. You're giving an inanimate object on the hip that can only be noticed when one is within 20 or so feet, maximum, and does nothing to call attention to itself, sufficiently powerful to make someone into a walking RKBA billboard, complete with neon lights, video, and a sound system.

Hell, I wear a unit patch for the 4th Infantry Division on my backpack, to demonstrate my support for my best friend, who's currently serving with the
4th in Iraq. Am I the Flamboyant, in your face draq queen of the pro-military crowd?

Each case has this in common: It is wearing an inanimate object in a fully legal manner that makes people uncomfortable. I have been glared at, verbally attacked, and socially snubbed for wearing my patch, because it makes people "uncomfortable".

And yes, if you make that analogy to OC, you're bound to it on many things.

So at this point, I urge you to recant your analogy, or you will force me to counter it with an analogy of my own: That I threaten livestock, and by extension ranchers, by being fat. I assure you, I didn't get this big on vegetables, and they don't know me from adam. So who's to say if I paid for my food, or just poached?

Sadly, that runs parallel to your argument.

Hey, now I'm wondering: do I get points for OCing the result of overindulging in foods I like, or should I CC that?

[Cole]

Originally Posted by JoeWilliams

I personally can't see why anyone would be offended. It was a very effective tactic for those groups, and is ultimately proving to be successful for those groups. And just as many people felt, perhaps still feel, every bit as uncomfortable around openly and flamingly gay people as they do around people with guns. If you don't come out of the closet, your rights stay hidden.

Which, as I've said before, is the only real use I see for OC off my property or out of the woods MOST of the time. Tactically and strategically, I strongly prefer CC.

Thanks for chiming in, Joe.

I drew the analogy and wasn't the first. However, I'm not ready to immediately buy in that what gay rights groups have done will work for 2nd amendment rights. As a matter of fact, I'm not 100% convinced that their political and social successes can be attributed to gay rights groups as much as the unparalleled media support they've enjoyed.

Public perception was affected more by Philadelphia, Angels in America, As Good As It Gets, Will and Grace, MTV, and literally thousands of books, plays, shows, etc. and these changed public opinion more than gay groups tossing condoms in churches or protesting on campuses. Gay groups showed their tremendous buying power which dramatically affected corporate attitudes. Showing they were more about the green than the pink, gay groups were very effective.

This same level of support does not look apparent in Hollywood and New York right now, and I'm far from convinced that OC is going to duplicate the success enjoyed by gay rights groups.

[Cole]

My point, VMJ is that OC is an outwardly demonstrative, some might say obnoxious, display of one's position. That's as far as I was going with the drag queen thing. To be 100% accurate and fair, I am not saying you guys secretly want to wear feather boas and gold lame speedos or anything. I was trying to point out the distinction and variety within the gun carry camp and draw an admittedly imperfect parallel.

But if you are trying to draw a parallel between your patch wearing and OC, you understand all too well about imperfect analogies. Again, there is a big difference between wearing a military patch and a gun, seeing as the one is designed to kill people and one is fabric. Would you understand people finding your behavior distasteful and impolite if that patch you were wearing was a swastika? Sure you have a legal right to wear it, but does that make people uncomfortable?

Originally Posted by VMJade

So at this point, I urge you to recant your analogy, or you will force me to counter it with an analogy of my own: That I threaten livestock, and by extension ranchers, by being fat. I assure you, I didn't get this big on vegetables, and they don't know me from adam. So who's to say if I paid for my food, or just poached? Sadly, that runs parallel to your argument.

I don't understand how this scenario is parallel to my analogy or which analogy you are talking about (? the gay rights one?)

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

How so? People are OC'ing in PA. You may not agree with it, but it is being done. It is a new resurgence of an old practice. As a result, people will talk about it. How is that "cheerleading'?

Just look at the post count on OC topics and the tone of the posts.

Who is "Fanatically pushing" OC on you?

It would take about 2 minutes to look on this forum and see who all those encouraging OC again and again and again.

No one says you must OC or agree with OC. You will not be turned away because you CC. In contrast, OC'ers are often shunned by a few of the CC crowd.

With some exceptions, the response I've received to my questions and honest reactions about OC have been a little on the hostile side. I appreciate where that comes from, but at the same time I think OCers need to be a little less thin skinned about people questioning the validity of their position . . . especially when somebody has repeatedly said he's trying to understand.

"leap of faith"? ...This seems to suggestt that there is no way a rational person would OC.

You drew that inference, I did not imply that. My intention follow the line of reasoning in my post. I am new to the OC debate, I don't understand the decision, but want to. Without any knowledge on the topic, I'm giving people I respect the benefit of the doubt until I can be informed one way or the other.

I find it odd that you keep stating you're "trying to understand" but yet insert various negative digs such as "cheerleading", "threatening", "fanatic pushing". It makes your inquisition seem somewhat disingenuous on the surface...IMO.

If I already understood it, I might be more supportive and not use phraseology that scares you or leads you to think that my mind is made up. The point is I was very honest about my initial perceptions and disagreement with OC, and just as honest about wanting more information in hopes of being able to reach a similar conclusion about the merits of OC that many of you have. Again, I'd say if that seems "disingenuous" to you, your perception of my intent and message is at least as much a factor as my true intent.

If you are seriously interested your not going to get amicable answers with that kind of subtly condescending questioning. What if my reasons do not "make sense" to you? You don't have to agree with OC.

I can appreciate that. Not everyone can face critical questioning of their position and be intelligent and respectful. When someone disagrees with me, I appreciate when they offer me an opportunity to exchange views. As much as people vehemently disagree with me, I hope if nothing else my posts have offered a window into the thinking and reactions of some people who first come across the strategy of OC.

No one has forced you to do or believe anything. You have an opinion and others have a different opinion. Just because people do not agree with you does not mean they are forcing anything on you.

My dear fellow, I'm a critical thinker. Nobody can possibly force an idea on me. An idea with merit clearly reasoned and passionately expressed is the best way for me (and probably most people) to accept a new concept.

Back on topic...Did you read the article?

Yes, I read the article. Thank you.

In addition to the article, do a search on oc vs cc. It's been discussed to death many times over. Plenty of info about the thoughts on both sides.

I do apologize for rehashing something you've all had to speak to so many times before. My own laziness in searching prior discussions is pathetic. I can completely understand why anyone would be frustrated having to start at square one again on this discussion with me.

[VMJade]

Originally Posted by Cole

My point, VMJ is that OC is an outwardly demonstrative, some might say obnoxious, display of one's position. That's as far as I was going with the drag queen thing. To be 100% accurate and fair, I am not saying you guys secretly want to wear feather boas and gold lame speedos or anything. I was trying to point out the distinction and variety within the gun carry camp and draw an admittedly imperfect parallel.

But if you are trying to draw a parallel between your patch wearing and OC, you understand all too well about imperfect analogies. Again, there is a big difference between wearing a military patch and a gun, seeing as the one is designed to kill people and one is fabric. Would you understand people finding your behavior distasteful and impolite if that patch you were wearing was a swastika? Sure you have a legal right to wear it, but does that make people uncomfortable?


I don't understand how this scenario is parallel to my analogy or which analogy you are talking about (? the gay rights one?)

Okay, first response: I'm well aware of what you were trying to say, and didn't take it as the suggestion that I'd wear a feather boa.

I'm aware that you're calling OC Obnoxious. My point, which you appear to have missed, is that other people finding it obnoxious is irrelevant.

Next: That's the interesting thing- most people who have expressed negative opinions about the patch have said something along the lines of "why don't you just strap on a gun? You're doing the same thing, morally." I'm going to run with that. Morally, strapping on a gun is not any different that wearing a patch, provided you do not pull the gun out to create a problem. Until you do pull it out, it's a belt ornament, in the ethical sense. It scares people, much like the miltiary patch, because they don't support what it represents.


Next: The analogy that fails is your analogy of OCers as the drag queens of the gunner world. I am not saying you're calling everyone a drag queen, I'm saying that they do not occupy the same role within the RKBA community that the draq queens you mention occupy in the gay community. The second analogy, the eating/being fat one, was farcical, designed to demonstrate my opinion that your analogy is baseless and without merit.

[jcabin]

excellent article, i really liked the quote from Franklin, I might throw that into my OC defense.

[Cole]

JoeWilliams, I really appreciated your latest post and it gave me better insight into the situation.

Do you really equate racism with a fear of an unknown gun carrier? I can see and appreciate some similarity, but I think there are important differences too.

1. The black/hispanic cannot change his race to accommodate people. The gun carrier can conceal his firearm.

2. It takes a lot more prejudice and many more irrational steps in thinking to see a black man as a threat than it does to see a gun as a threat.

Also, there is a huge difference between carrying conceal vs. OC and deciding that means we need to completely disarm altogether. I'm not into domino theory, slippery slope, if we budge at all then all is lost sort of thinking.

It is reasonable for me to wear an IWB instead of OWB holster if it makes my fellow man around me happier. There is a line where the imposition of another person's view becomes excessive. On a continuum there are people who are unwilling to make any concession at all to the thoughts and feelings of others, and on the opposite end people who allow others' reactions to determine everything. You do not have to be on one end or the other. There is middle ground.

Let's not lose sight of why the politeness issue matters most though. Ultimately, the question is whether the offense or threat that some people feel from OC is going to have a positive or negative consequence on our rights to carry.

I guess if I dig through the old posts and do more independent research, I'll find thoughtful discussion on the topic.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by VMJade

Morally, strapping on a gun is not any different that wearing a patch, provided you do not pull the gun out to create a problem. Until you do pull it out, it's a belt ornament, in the ethical sense. It scares people, much like the miltiary patch, because they don't support what it represents.

I completely disagree. A patch does not pose the same deadly risk as a gun, and therefore there is a very different morality requirement associated with both. There is a difference between a weapon and a fashion accessory. I think there is a difference between you choosing to strap on a katana and walking along the beach than if you wear a Yankees cap (backwards) there.

Personally, I'd be more offended by the Yankees cap . . . but logically I'd see the katana as more dangerous.

What I've come to realize is the futility of trying to discuss OC here with the folks engaged. I'm getting very legit questions summarily rejected and labeled "without merit" or "meaninglessly opinionated". My opinion actually means a lot to me. In any case, I see more emotion than reason from most of the guys responding to my questions, and I feel like I'm turning people off with my comments. I don't mean to do that, and will simmer down. Likewise, I don't want to make my mind up on this issue while I'm frustrated with some of the OC people's posts and personalities.

I have learned more about the issue and appreciate the time you guys took in an effort to help me understand your position.