Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry ~ A paper by Garry E. Harvey

[Cole]

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

You don't have to agree to show support.

I'm afraid I do. I'm broken that way. I can't support something that I don't understand.

It's one thing to support your legal right to do something. There you have my support. I don't have a legal problem with you doing this. Most critiques I've seen of OC in these forums don't raise legal objections.

Honestly, the whole OC thing is really turning me off and that's scary. I'm a gun enthusiast who carries on a daily basis and has for years. I've been coming to this site for years and really enjoyed the practical advice on training, equipment, and other topics that have been offered here. Now, more and more this site has turned into an OC cheerleading site.

I've been away for a little while with my cancer fight, so I'm still trying to process what I'm seeing here. That's why I'm asking for people's help in understanding things.

Right now, if anything, I'm feeling pushed away by those fanatically pushing OC. I'd really like to understand, so I can help. Right now, I'm taking the leap of faith that you guys have practical reasons that make sense to me for OC.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by Cole

I'm afraid I do. I'm broken that way. I can't support something that I don't understand.

Not understanding is one thing. Understanding and not supporting something because your opinion differs is another.

Originally Posted by Cole

Now, more and more this site has turned into an OC cheerleading site.

This site is doing what it has always done - represent the thoughts, interests and experiences of it's members. OC is growing in PA, and these forums reflect that. The forums are not the cause of this fact.

Originally Posted by Cole

Right now, if anything, I'm feeling pushed away by those fanatically pushing OC.

Can you please point me to a single post that you feel is "fanatically pushing OC"? I am a bit fanatical about my own practice of OC. I couldn't care less if you do it or not. I support your right to carry any legal way that you choose.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Cole

I'll be honest, I am not a fan of open carry. It runs contrary to my training and common sense from a strategic standpoint,

No mention of deterrence... I wonder why?

My training taught me that the likelihood of being able to actually use my concealed firearm in a time of need is unlikely in many encounters.
Why not avoid the fight all together through deterrence? Seems like common sense to me

Originally Posted by Cole

Making people uncomfortable like that does not sit well with my idea of good manners or civil behavior, and I confess to seeing OC as a bit obnoxious for this reason. I'm sorry, guys, and I don't mean to judge . . . but I can't get past this.

Guns are not good manners? BS
This is as meaninglessly opinionated as if I (hypothetical) said something like. "CC is rude and deceiving. It's obnoxious to hide your gun if your not doing anything wrong. Why all the sneaky sneaky? You planning on robbing the joint?"

Can you see the similarity?

Seriously, the attitude that guns must be hidden is unfounded in reality and is a large part (IMO) of why we have suffered many attacks on our gun rights. People hide their guns and succumb to the notion that they are doing something "bad" by owning and/or carrying guns.

It's like admitting your wrong without saying a word is what I would call that. It's a sure way to loose those rights.

Originally Posted by Cole

Establishing a public image of gun carriers as people who demonstrate behavior that threatens people might not be in our best interests.

Stop!

OC does not threaten anyone. People threaten, openly carried guns do not.
Are the police threatening everyone because their guns are not hidden? Are hunters threatening everyone?

People largely could care less. I say that from experience.

The vision of everyday people, carefully and respectfully carrying, in the eye of the public is what is needed to return gun carry as a "socially acceptable" practice.

I've met life long residents of PA that did not know you could carry a handgun. Yes, I'm serious. You really think that that (status quo) is the way to keep your gun rights? I don't.

Originally Posted by Cole

I just hope the approach OC folks take does not backfire and make the climate even less friendly to those of us who choose to carry only to defend ourselves (and not to make political statements).

It's been very successful in the states before us. Heck, VA even got preemption passed more or less directly because of OC "movement"

Originally Posted by Cole

...From a tactical standpoint, the only clear advantage I can see is that extra 0.2 seconds of time on a draw saved by not clearing a cover garment. An openly carried gun simply shows you are a threat. The adversary may choose to avoid you because you are a danger, take you out first to eliminate you, or maybe your weapon makes you more of a target because your gun is a prized bit of loot. I view all of these as very real possibilities.

Yes, all possibilities. Not statistically equal though. You seem fixated on the minuscule possibilities and ignoring the most likely: deterrence.

Originally Posted by Cole

The reality of the matter is the need to employ a firearm for self-defense is a very unlikely event for the vast majority of us. Thank God. Should I ever find myself in such a situation, my training, continued practice, and carried handgun will give me my best fighting chance to survive it.

Again, I'd rather not need it. IMO, deterrence beats a surprise any day

Originally Posted by Cole

I'm trying, guys. I'm trying to see your way, so I can support my brothers.

OC is a personal choice. Just like CC or no-C.
Consider the advantages, disadvantages and the circumstances around where you are carrying and carry how you please.

[rwilson452]

ok, would you say it's ok to open carry in the field when hunting? Would you like to see that possibility eliminated?

Originally Posted by Cole

I'm afraid I do. I'm broken that way. I can't support something that I don't understand.

It's one thing to support your legal right to do something. There you have my support. I don't have a legal problem with you doing this. Most critiques I've seen of OC in these forums don't raise legal objections.

Honestly, the whole OC thing is really turning me off and that's scary. I'm a gun enthusiast who carries on a daily basis and has for years. I've been coming to this site for years and really enjoyed the practical advice on training, equipment, and other topics that have been offered here. Now, more and more this site has turned into an OC cheerleading site.

I've been away for a little while with my cancer fight, so I'm still trying to process what I'm seeing here. That's why I'm asking for people's help in understanding things.

Right now, if anything, I'm feeling pushed away by those fanatically pushing OC. I'd really like to understand, so I can help. Right now, I'm taking the leap of faith that you guys have practical reasons that make sense to me for OC.

[Cole]

Thanks for the responses. I'm really not trying to ruffle feathers for its own sake here, so I appreciate those who are trying to have a civil discussion and raise valid points.

I think we're missing each other on the support question. When I say support, I do not mean some vague notion of live and let live . . . i.e. I support your legal right to open carry. You have that support, but I'm not sure that's really not that important.

When I talk about support, I mean to jump in with my whole heart and defend your choice to others, and to appreciate and respect your decision to OC. I can't do that blindly. I'm a critical thinker and I don't snap into formation. I need to agree with the general concept and rationale, even if I don't see it as my best personal choice. Right now, I'm not there yet.

As I try to understand, I'm working to get it from both a tactical perspective, a political perspective (what's best for our cause . . . assuming the cause is first the right to carry, and only secondarily what method), and also from a social perspective.

So, I do ask that people show me a little respect here . . . even though I can understand how frustrating it can be for you guys to have this conversation with somebody who "doesn't get it" yet.

Now to the specific points addressed to me . . .

1. No mention of deterrence . . . well actually it's the first of the three possibilities that I listed when an adversary sees you carry. As to which of these three weighs statistically heavier. I'm not sure how you could accurately measure most of these, and honestly statistically goes out the window when you're in that unique situation where you have to act.

2. Openly displaying a gun as good manners is a matter of opinion. Agreed. At the same time, there are people who either speak up or don't who feel threatened by the "weirdo" at the WaWa walking around with a gun. This is a fact. In my opinion, it is good manners to carry concealed and avoid upsetting or scaring some people by displaying a gun.

3. No, I don't see any similarity between your characterization of OC and CC. The sneaky, rob the joint leap is not based on the objective fact of people being upset by your open display.

4. The reason our gun rights are under attack has virtually nothing to do with legal cc in my opinion. The much bigger reason why politicians and private citizens have more restrictive attitudes over guns is because of school/mall shootings, rising murder rates caused by illegal gun users, and media sensationalizing these both.

5. It's very simplistic to say people threaten, guns don't. If I'm at WaWa and someone I don't know walks in, I am more likely to see a risk or danger if that man has the means to easily destroy me at his relatively instant disposal than if he does not. The man is carrying an object designed to kill people. That's all I know about him.

6. Police carrying weapons does carry an implicit threat. Police use intimidation of the "lawful" use of force and incarceration daily. Likewise, if my kids are playing in the woods, and I see armed hunters . . . yes that is a sign to me that there is danger of an accidental shooting if I allow them to play in those woods.

7. We can differ in our opinions of what tactics are politically best to defend our rights to carry guns. I gather that people think that openly carrying their guns helps educate the police and public about our rights, so that they're tougher to take away. I totally understand that. As time goes on, and open carry becomes more common, do you think more or less private establishments likes malls, movie theaters, etc. will post no firearms allowed signs? Do you think people are just as likely, if not more so, to dig deeper into anti-gun beliefs when confronted than somehow come to an epiphany because you've enlightened them? I think an intelligent discussion of tactics makes a lot of sense here . . . but there is so much emotion in the cc vs. oc schism that I doubt it can happen.

8. I don't know enough about the political forces behind preemption in VA.

9. Status quo may not be a guarantee of preserving 2nd amendment, but reducing support within the carry community by OC seems to be undercutting the strength we do have. I see this issue as very divisive within our community, and this division hurts the cause as a whole.

10. Cops wearing guns openly do not deter shooters and killers from taking their lives . . . even though killing that cop is likely to lead to a more severe sentence than if they kill a nobody like you or me. So, while I agree there is some deterrence advantage here, you are overstating its value and understating the risk of making yourself a target. How do we definitively measure this? I think people read what they want on both sides.

11. Of course, I'll make my decision to carry as I see best, just as I did before I was aware of a strong OC movement. Thanks for the information and helping me better understand your decision better.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer the question about hunting. No, I do not want to have to conceal a shotgun under a trenchcoat while in the wild hunting ducks. My sense of manners and desire not to threaten or upset others extends only to my fellow man. Let the turkey, pheasant and grouse tremble.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by Cole

PA Patriot steered me to this thread.

I'll be honest, I am not a fan of open carry. It runs contrary to my training and common sense from a strategic standpoint, and based on posts I've seen here more people tend to be doing it as a political statement and to force/encourage confrontations that allow them to educate offended citizens on carry rights and guns in general.

As a political strategy, it strikes me as very similar to what gay action groups did in the 80s and 90s. People felt persecuted and wanted to act out to defend their rights, prove they weren't ashamed and to educate and expose people to their views. I don't mean to offend OC guys, but that's what the movement reminds me of.

As a political strategy, I'm not sure this is the right way to go. I do think it makes people uncomfortable to be around strangers with deadly weapons on display and that is a very rational fear in my mind. They don't know who you are, just that you carry a device that can take their life. Making people uncomfortable like that does not sit well with my idea of good manners or civil behavior, and I confess to seeing OC as a bit obnoxious for this reason. I'm sorry, guys, and I don't mean to judge . . . but I can't get past this.

Establishing a public image of gun carriers as people who demonstrate behavior that threatens people might not be in our best interests. At the same time, I understand the current political and social climate scares some gun enthusiasts into taking extraordinary measures in defense of their 2nd amendment rights. I just hope the approach OC folks take does not backfire and make the climate even less friendly to those of us who choose to carry only to defend ourselves (and not to make political statements).

From a tactical standpoint, the only clear advantage I can see is that extra 0.2 seconds of time on a draw saved by not clearing a cover garment. An openly carried gun simply shows you are a threat. The adversary may choose to avoid you because you are a danger, take you out first to eliminate you, or maybe your weapon makes you more of a target because your gun is a prized bit of loot. I view all of these as very real possibilities.

The reality of the matter is the need to employ a firearm for self-defense is a very unlikely event for the vast majority of us. Thank God. Should I ever find myself in such a situation, my training, continued practice, and carried handgun will give me my best fighting chance to survive it.

While I continue to go through life, hoping I never have to use my gun, I carry it politely trying not to upset those around me who do not know me well enough to know that I'm no danger to them.

I'm trying, guys. I'm trying to see your way, so I can support my brothers.

The bottom line, Cole, is that we have the right to OC. I don't OC to make a political statement, although I find that to be an excellent byproduct. Carrying a firearm is not "polite". There is nothing "polite" about a gun. You may act polite, but your firearm has nothing to do with it. I am extremely polite whether I am carrying or not....
I don't need to convince you to support OC. If you do, great. If not, that's your choice. But you do need to respect that we have the right to do so, or you don't believe in rights at all. There is no in between when it comes to supporting people exercising their rights. The Gay pride movement analogy is very accurate, and I am not offended. The situations are very similar. Just like there were many people who said it was rude to be gay in public. There were and are many people who feel that gays should keep their displays private, for politeness sake. They feel they shouldn't flaunt their gayness in public because it makes people uncomfortable.....
You have the right to your opinion, Cole. Have it and enjoy it. But, to me, your arguments are ridiculous and without merit. Well written and seemingly polite, but ridiculous none the less. They are no different from the homophobic debates had at the expense of gay people, and will eventually be thought of as such. No matter how politely you call someone a fag, you still called them a fag. To more than a few of your type, OC'ers are the equivalent of being gay, in the firearm community. The nonsense needs to stop, and it needs to stop coming from people like you. If you value your rights, you will support ours. Or don't.

[VMJade]

Originally Posted by Cole

2. Openly displaying a gun as good manners is a matter of opinion. Agreed. At the same time, there are people who either speak up or don't who feel threatened by the "weirdo" at the WaWa walking around with a gun. This is a fact. In my opinion, it is good manners to carry concealed and avoid upsetting or scaring some people by displaying a gun.

No, I would respectfully submit that the manners of carrying is not a matter of opinion. Is it rude to openly carry a multi-tool,a knife, or car keys?

Each of these items can kill, but wearing them is not considered rude.

That comment is what (for me, anyway) converts the discussion from a debate to an argument- you're using an immeasurable statement in a discussion of measurable responses. Much as with the car I drive, or the way I dress, it is not done for outside approval, and NOR SHOULD IT BE. I've been told that my wristwatch makes people uncomfortable, because it's worth a little money and it makes it more likely I'll get mugged. I've been told my clothes make people uncomfortable because they're more well-made than the neighborhood I'm in can afford, and I'm implying I'm better than they are.

My response to those statements is the same as the response I make to you: when off the clock (not working), we wear clothing and tools not for others, but for ourselves. Would you advocate not wearing the T-shirts I've seen around gun shows that say "Infidel" in English and Arabic, because someone might get offended? How about a leather jacket, when there are people who consider killing an animal to be murder?

I do not open carry, but I understand the desire to do so.

Before you think that I'm just following the crowd here, let me explain why I don't open carry. I do not have, nor do I have the inclination to purchase, a holster suitable for open carry. I've spent a significant amount of time and money getting a CC setup that works for me, and I'm happy with it. If it ain't broke and all.

This comment, to me, is indicative to what I call the "I-Pod-ization of society". Everyone has to have their little zone of perosnal comfort, because getting offended is not just wrong, it's unamerican! Our universities only allow liberal protests. It's perfectly acceptable for PETA to harass people who order chicken, or wear fur, and claiming that abortion is a good thing is "just natural", and yet we're the bad guys for wearing a weapon, daring to think that meat tastes good, or suggesting that individuals have the right to consume whatever they prefer.

I for one am tired of this insidious politically correct virus that is running through our collective system, and I suspect that I am not alone.

I am offended constantly- told that I'm a baby-killer in training, that my friends in uniform a mindless pawns in a political game instead of the patriots that they are, and that I shouldn't be allowed to smoke because I might hurt myself.

It's time for that to stop. I'm tired of people screeching at me about "reasonable regulation" and "for your own good" and then calling me a bigot or redneck when I respond with anything but praise.

And I don't think I'm the only one that's tired of it.

Kirk

[Cole]

Originally Posted by headcase

The bottom line, Cole, is that we have the right to OC. I don't OC to make a political statement, although I find that to be an excellent byproduct. Carrying a firearm is not "polite". There is nothing "polite" about a gun. You may act polite, but your firearm has nothing to do with it. I am extremely polite whether I am carrying or not....

True, the gun is neither polite nor impolite. Your behavior / choice in the way you choose to carry it can be, however. People have different perceptions of what is polite and what is not, though. A quick review of the tone of posts on every conceivable topic here at PAFOA.org shows we run the gamut in our understanding of what is polite.

But you do need to respect that we have the right to do so, or you don't believe in rights at all. There is no in between when it comes to supporting people exercising their rights.

This is very simplistic. "If you don't agree with me, you're against freedom, and America, and apple pie." BS flag thrown. I've said a number of times that I am not disputing anyone's legal right to OC. Show me one place where I've ever challenged it on any sort of legal grounds. My reservations about the practice center around social, political and tactical issues. There are lots of things which people can legally do that I do not agree with, but I'm not advocating jail time for fat chicks that wear belly shirts, anyone who funds Paris Hilton's "career", or a person that burns the flag.

The Gay pride movement analogy is very accurate, and I am not offended. The situations are very similar. Just like there were many people who said it was rude to be gay in public. There were and are many people who feel that gays should keep their displays private, for politeness sake. They feel they shouldn't flaunt their gayness in public because it makes people uncomfortable.....

At least we agree on something.

You have the right to your opinion, Cole. Have it and enjoy it. But, to me, your arguments are ridiculous and without merit. Well written and seemingly polite, but ridiculous none the less.

Without merit. OK, a little harsh. I thought they were reasonably well thought out, even if my reasoning and values lead me to different conclusions than yours. I would never say that an OC decision is ridiculous and without merit, even if I might ask questions about an individual's decision to do so. There's a difference between not enthusiastically embracing something and being totally intolerant against it. Then again, I appreciate that some of you guys might be feeling judged and unappreciated by your gun enthusiast brethren, so you're approaching any questioning or divergent views as an assault on your rights. I don't give out passes for that though. Respect, logic and intelligent discussion are still a standard that I hold people up to.

They are no different from the homophobic debates had at the expense of gay people, and will eventually be thought of as such. No matter how politely you call someone a fag, you still called them a fag. To more than a few of your type, OC'ers are the equivalent of being gay, in the firearm community. The nonsense needs to stop, and it needs to stop coming from people like you. If you value your rights, you will support ours. Or don't.

First of all, in the gay community has the same sort of discussions inside their ranks that we're having here. There are gay people that choose to keep their personal lives . . . well, personal. There are those that toss condoms around in churches and disrupt masses. There are also a ton of people somewhere in the middle. To be honest, I think gay dudes do a better job of having intelligent debate about identifying common social and political aims and how they want to achieve them than we do.

As for my gay analogy, I didn't say OCers were gay. I said if gunners were gay, OCers would be the flamboyant, in your face drag queens.

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by Cole

snip

As a political strategy, it strikes me as very similar to what gay action groups did in the 80s and 90s. People felt persecuted and wanted to act out to defend their rights, prove they weren't ashamed and to educate and expose people to their views. I don't mean to offend OC guys, but that's what the movement reminds me of.

As a political strategy, I'm not sure this is the right way to go. I do think it makes people uncomfortable to be around strangers with deadly weapons on display and that is a very rational fear in my mind. snip
.

I personally can't see why anyone would be offended. It was a very effective tactic for those groups, and is ultimately proving to be successful for those groups. And just as many people felt, perhaps still feel, every bit as uncomfortable around openly and flamingly gay people as they do around people with guns. If you don't come out of the closet, your rights stay hidden.

Which, as I've said before, is the only real use I see for OC off my property or out of the woods MOST of the time. Tactically and strategically, I strongly prefer CC.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by VMJade

No, I would respectfully submit that the manners of carrying is not a matter of opinion. Is it rude to openly carry a multi-tool,a knife, or car keys?

Your analogy is false. Do a multi-tool or car keys make other people as uncomfortable as a gun? May things can kill, but even someone pushing the OC agenda must appreciate the threat difference between an object specifically designed to take human life and one that is not. At the range, look to see what the bad guy on your target is holding. Usually it's a gun and not car keys.

That comment is what (for me, anyway) converts the discussion from a debate to an argument- you're using an immeasurable statement in a discussion of measurable responses.

Your appealing to ignorance though. So far every argument I've seen in favor relies on immeasurable assumptions as well.

Much as with the car I drive, or the way I dress, it is not done for outside approval, and NOR SHOULD IT BE. I've been told that my wristwatch makes people uncomfortable, because it's worth a little money and it makes it more likely I'll get mugged. I've been told my clothes make people uncomfortable because they're more well-made than the neighborhood I'm in can afford, and I'm implying I'm better than they are.

My response to those statements is the same as the response I make to you: when off the clock (not working), we wear clothing and tools not for others, but for ourselves. Would you advocate not wearing the T-shirts I've seen around gun shows that say "Infidel" in English and Arabic, because someone might get offended? How about a leather jacket, when there are people who consider killing an animal to be murder?

You are attempting to reduce the OC vs. CC debate to a discussion of fashion taste? There's a big difference between me criticizing you wearing white after Labor Day and questioning motivations and consequences of you caring a deadly weapon in plain sight. I do not buy the validity of your analogy.

This comment, to me, is indicative to what I call the "I-Pod-ization of society". Everyone has to have their little zone of perosnal comfort, because getting offended is not just wrong, it's unamerican! Our universities only allow liberal protests. It's perfectly acceptable for PETA to harass people who order chicken, or wear fur, and claiming that abortion is a good thing is "just natural", and yet we're the bad guys for wearing a weapon, daring to think that meat tastes good, or suggesting that individuals have the right to consume whatever they prefer.

I would rather not have gun enthusiasts in the same company as PETA, NOW, and other organizations because we practice a similar level of disregard and impolite behavior.

I for one am tired of this insidious politically correct virus that is running through our collective system, and I suspect that I am not alone.

People scream a lot about political correctness, but look around you. There is more disregard for the thoughts and feelings of other people now than I can ever remember. It's getting harder and harder to see people treat each other with respect anymore. Even a tight knit group of guys that agree that they should have the right to carry guns to protect themselves revert to name calling at the drop of a hat. Our society is becoming increasingly less civil and more self-centered.

I am offended constantly- told that I'm a baby-killer in training, that my friends in uniform a mindless pawns in a political game instead of the patriots that they are, and that I shouldn't be allowed to smoke because I might hurt myself.

It's time for that to stop. I'm tired of people screeching at me about "reasonable regulation" and "for your own good" and then calling me a bigot or redneck when I respond with anything but praise.

And I don't think I'm the only one that's tired of it.

Kirk

I get your frustration.