Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry ~ A paper by Garry E. Harvey

[CQB]

Interesting article.

One thing I like most about it is...

He doesn't push one method of carry down your throat over another.

He made it perfectly clear, one way may not be for you. He also made it clear, there are times and places that you should and shouldn't OC.

I like that.

[Tootie]

Originally Posted by jofreder

We do not get a CCW it is a License to Carry a Firearm which permits you to Carry Concealed ( including in a vehicle ) and in a City of First Class(Philly) either OC or CC. The LTCF makes it easier to OC so you can get in your car and not have to walk everywhere. So, to clarify, you can open carry regardless of the LTCF. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not know or is trying to intimidate you.

Thank you...I think the ones that told me that just didn't know there is a difference between a CCW and a LTCF.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Tootie

Thank you...I think the ones that told me that just didn't know there is a difference between a CCW and a LTCF.

Check out this link for some handy CC and OC info:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...carry-you.html[/b]

[headcase]

Originally Posted by jofreder

We do not get a CCW it is a License to Carry a Firearm which permits you to Carry Concealed ( including in a vehicle ) and in a City of First Class(Philly) either OC or CC. The LTCF makes it easier to OC so you can get in your car and not have to walk everywhere. So, to clarify, you can open carry regardless of the LTCF. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not know or is trying to intimidate you.

Just to clarify a few points for someone new, a CCW is a concealed carry weapon. A CCP is a concealed carry permit. Some states issue CCP's and you may have an obligation by law to keep your weapon concealed in those states. In pennsylvania, we are issued Licenses To Carry Firearms, LTCF. While these are necessary to carry concealed, in this commonwealth, you are under no obligation to keep your weapon concealed. If you are carrying concealed and your weapon shows or prints, there is no legal problem. If you want to carry openly, you are free to do that as well. Philadelphia is the only place that you need a LTCF to carry in either manner. Here is a link to the laws on this, read through them and familiarize yourself with them.

[Tootie]

Thank you headcase and Pa. Patriot. Looks like I have some serious reading to do so I know everything about the laws and my rights.

[Fullauto223cal]

I'm glad to see my essay is still getting some attention. A radio host PM'd me over at opencarry.org to get permission to quote my essay on his radio show. Of course I gave it to him. He didn't give me a link to his show's home page, think he forgot, but as soon as I get it I'll pass it on over here. The show will be pod cast this Saturday.

[JoeWilliams]

With regard to the element of surprise discussed earlier, open carry actually supersedes the need for surprise. If carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated. Your display of an ability to employ deadly force has avoided the confrontation before it even began, avoided the threat to your life and having to actually use your weapon. As the CRIMINAL moves on to easier prey you will likely never be aware it even happened.

The criminal will either move on, or target and shoot you, depending on how valuable they view their target. I'm not certain why the author chose not to address that possibility. I do know OC proponents generally blow off the possibility in these discussions, but I feel they are doing themselves a disfavor by disregarding the very real risk.

[Fullauto223cal]

Hello Joe,

In response to your post, I think the following would cover what you asked.

Do insane or even desperate CRIMINALS exist who would disregard such an obvious sign and follow through with an attack? As with any possibility the answer is YES but even though they exist their actions do not support the opposing view that open carry should be avoided.

You stated that

I do know OC proponents generally blow off the possibility in these discussions...

I suppose if I were carrying $10,000 cash and the thug knew it then you might be right but then again I don't know anyone who carries that much and if they do they damn sure keep it secret. I submit that, to my knowledge, the non-existence of any credible incident where someone OCing was a victim for no reason other than he was OCing would be why we OCers "blow off" the "risk" you propose. I would welcome any example you may have to offer.

If there were even one credible story where it was proven that an OCer was shot for no other reason than he was carrying openly the news media would be all over it like white on rice w/ glass of milk in a snow storm.

I hold to the argument I made in the essay

when the ARMED CITIZEN carries his weapon in the open it communicates a clear message to any observer. To an observer who has no intention of causing harm or using illegal force the sign should be meaningless. However, when the CRIMINAL observes this same sign he must reconsider whether the potential reward outweighs the risk. Where the risk was simply being caught or having to physically overpower the UNARMED CITIZEN it now suddenly rises to potentially enduring great pain and death when confronting the ARMED CITIZEN.

Benjamin Franklin said it best over two hundred years ago and I believe it stands to this day.

"The very fame of our strength and readiness would be a means of discouraging our enemies; for 'tis a wise and true saying, that one sword often keeps another in the scabbard. The way to secure peace is to be prepared for war. They that are on their guard, and appear ready to receive their adversaries, are in much less danger of being attacked than the supine, secure and negligent."

[Cole]

PA Patriot steered me to this thread.

I'll be honest, I am not a fan of open carry. It runs contrary to my training and common sense from a strategic standpoint, and based on posts I've seen here more people tend to be doing it as a political statement and to force/encourage confrontations that allow them to educate offended citizens on carry rights and guns in general.

As a political strategy, it strikes me as very similar to what gay action groups did in the 80s and 90s. People felt persecuted and wanted to act out to defend their rights, prove they weren't ashamed and to educate and expose people to their views. I don't mean to offend OC guys, but that's what the movement reminds me of.

As a political strategy, I'm not sure this is the right way to go. I do think it makes people uncomfortable to be around strangers with deadly weapons on display and that is a very rational fear in my mind. They don't know who you are, just that you carry a device that can take their life. Making people uncomfortable like that does not sit well with my idea of good manners or civil behavior, and I confess to seeing OC as a bit obnoxious for this reason. I'm sorry, guys, and I don't mean to judge . . . but I can't get past this.

Establishing a public image of gun carriers as people who demonstrate behavior that threatens people might not be in our best interests. At the same time, I understand the current political and social climate scares some gun enthusiasts into taking extraordinary measures in defense of their 2nd amendment rights. I just hope the approach OC folks take does not backfire and make the climate even less friendly to those of us who choose to carry only to defend ourselves (and not to make political statements).

From a tactical standpoint, the only clear advantage I can see is that extra 0.2 seconds of time on a draw saved by not clearing a cover garment. An openly carried gun simply shows you are a threat. The adversary may choose to avoid you because you are a danger, take you out first to eliminate you, or maybe your weapon makes you more of a target because your gun is a prized bit of loot. I view all of these as very real possibilities.

The reality of the matter is the need to employ a firearm for self-defense is a very unlikely event for the vast majority of us. Thank God. Should I ever find myself in such a situation, my training, continued practice, and carried handgun will give me my best fighting chance to survive it.

While I continue to go through life, hoping I never have to use my gun, I carry it politely trying not to upset those around me who do not know me well enough to know that I'm no danger to them.

I'm trying, guys. I'm trying to see your way, so I can support my brothers.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by Cole

I'm trying, guys. I'm trying to see your way, so I can support my brothers.

You don't have to agree to show support. During my revocation, I was very surprised to learn that I had support from one of my wife's office mates. She is not pro-gun and sees absolutely no point in me carrying regularly OC or CC. She is intelligent enough to comprehend the law and supported my fight simply on principle, even though given the chance, she would surely vote to remove the rights I was fighting for.

THAT is a true demonstration of character. I made it a point to speak to her directly after the whole ordeal so I could tell her how much I appreciated her integrity, in spite of our disagreement on guns in general.