Tips on NFA Shopping - Can I get scammed?

[ungawa]

Well, I know I can get scammed whenever I'm stupid but I wanted the point in the thread title.

I'm looking mostly for machine guns. Many are in the hands of private individuals. I have to send them lots of money before they will even submit the paperwork to give my dealer the firearm.

How does it work? What is customary? Inspection periods, function tests? Tips on protecting myself?

Places to avoid shopping?

Thanks guys.

[heavyt]

Originally Posted by ungawa

Well, I know I can get scammed whenever I'm stupid but I wanted the point in the thread title.

I'm looking mostly for machine guns. Many are in the hands of private individuals. I have to send them lots of money before they will even submit the paperwork to give my dealer the firearm.

How does it work? What is customary? Inspection periods, function tests? Tips on protecting myself?

Places to avoid shopping?

Thanks guys.

references is always best. perhaps meet the person and inspect it. If you are paying xx,xxx for a gun I'd be willing to fly out for xxx.xx and meet with him to inspect it etc.

[danp]

Additionally always check or post on the Subguns.com Board of Inquiry, they're pretty good at knowing who is above board and who to stay away from.

Also as heavyt said, if you're paying $10k for a gun, drop the few hundred to fly out and look at it.

[Agent Smith]

I'm sure people have had no problems buying them from a private party, but personally, I would never do it unless I knew and trusted them. I would wait and try and track one down that's being sold in a shop. In my opinion, that's just too much money to take a chance with.

[ungawa]

Thanks guys.

Based on these responses, I assume there is no customary transfer scheme. I was hoping you were going to tell me have the buyer perform a repair transfer (or whatever, don't know what I am talking about) to a reputable gun shop that would be a custodian of an escrow account before I supply funds.

I agree about flying out to inspect the firearm, but said firearm may be borrowed, stolen, untransferable, or previously sold to someone else with said seller moving to LA when my check and the earlier transfer clear. For $15-20K I assume I can get a fake stamp and a piece of paper and still turn a huge profit when paid in cash. And the owner may not want to bring an original to a meeting with a stranger so I may see a copy.

Moving beyond the apparent issue that all my money can be stolen from me (unless anybody has ideas), I assume I need to have them sign a written contract that says money is refunded if transfer is not approved and I have an inspection period with recourse?

I know I am throwing a lot of questions out. Feel free to answer any you want and no more, or simply bypass and tell me how you have chosen to get around these risks. I'm just throwing out all my concerns for context, I doubt anyone can allay all of them. Thanks again.

[Guns4Fun]

If you are that worried about it buy from a dealer (a known established dealer). You will more than likely pay more for this but how much is your peace of mind worth?

Now, i have done a few same state form 4 transfers with individules. For me, things to do before you pay.

1. meet seller
2. confirm the serial number on the gun / form 4
3. call atf to confirm that the serial number is in the system
4. Negotiate payment--ie ask about paying x amount up front the rest upon form approval--some might go for it some might not.

I would not worry about not being approved---if you can buy a gun from a gun shop, you can get the atf approval----i'd make very sure your local cleo will sign off before even looking for your gun.

Good luck

[JayBell]

Originally Posted by danp

Additionally always check or post on the Subguns.com Board of Inquiry, they're pretty good at knowing who is above board and who to stay away from.

Also as heavyt said, if you're paying $10k for a gun, drop the few hundred to fly out and look at it.

A list of reputable dealers can be found here:
http://www.subguns.com/c2c3/c2c3.htm


as a note, the Subguns Board of Inquiry is for buyers and sellers actually doing business with other buyers and sellers on the Subguns.com website only...basically, if it happens any other place than Subguns (like gunbroker, auctionarms, or some guy named Bob down the street with a M16) then you cant post the ref check on the Subguns Board of inquiry.

just wanted to let ya know so a post put there doesn't just disappear



if you are worried about being ripped off, try using a reputable dealer, and as others said, go personally check the firearm, verify its on the registry, etc.

[bogey1]

i got ripped off on gunbroker a few years back. i sent the man 450.00 for a suppressor, and he never sent it... i called the fbi, state police, and you know what they told me ? we'll look into it i called them back about a year later after no replies, they basically told me im shit out of luck...

[GunLawyer001]

So far as standard terms of sale go, it's increasingly common for sellers to ask for 100% up front. This isn't unreasonable, since you are asking them to submit paperwork to the ATF which will transfer legal possession from them to you; and if the buyer pays 50% up front, but gets laid off while the Form is pending, then runs out of money and can't pay the balance, the dealer has to cancel the transfer and do it all over again with another buyer.

As for a full refund if your transfer is disapproved, that's pushing it. If your transfer is disapproved it will almost certainly be because of you, the buyer, and you would know better than the seller if you're likely to be approved. You know your own criminal history, your own mental health records, whether you have any outstanding warrants or whether your jurisdiction doesn't allow this particular toy. I'd expect a re-stocking fee to apply if your transfer is denied. But this would ideally be covered in a written purchase agreement, so both parties understand the expectations up front.

If the transfer is denied because the item is a dealer sample but the seller claimed it was a transferable, that's a whole 'nother thing. But most denials are buyer-related.

[Asmodeus]

I've bought and sold with private individuals. I usually ask for a copy of the F4 prior to sending any money, other than that I've never had an issue with getting the gun I paid for.