Lynne Abraham to Michael Nutter: Gun Laws Unconstitutional, Will Not Enforce

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

When exactly did it become my responsibility to solve the problems of people who ignored all the advice they were given? Stay in school. Don't commit crimes. Don't do drugs. Girls, don't screw anyone until you're married, and don't marry some punk without a job or prospects.

When exactly? Never. Don't do anything to improve the lot of your fellow man, fellow residents of your Commonwealth and fellow Americans. You're right that's it's not your obligation and you bear no responsibility to do a thing.

But number one, don't sit there so sanctamoneous and tell us about how eradicating the entire population of a city will resolve its problems. It's ridiculous to even remotely consider that as a solution. We join wars over foreign gov'ts that do that sort of thing to some of its people. It won't happen here and it shouldn't.

Number two, you might notice that I get annoyed when people lump the entire population of the city into one bad bunch. We've got plenty of problems, but the vast majority of people who live here are decent, honest, hardworking people just like your neighbors out in the burbs. Many of them earn a good deal less than your neighbors and that does create some issues with regard to the city's tax revenue and funds to deal with those who are problems.

Three, the burbs get tremendous benefit from the cities in the sense that the burbs can zone poverty virtually out and push it into concentrated pockets called cities, and that's exactly what tends to happen.

And finally four, yes, the city population includes an inordinate number of feral predators who belong excluded from decent society and in prison. I didn't create them any more than you did. We all did. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility but there is (and will always be) a segment that needs a bit more, shall we say, guidance. If you are unwilling to provide that guidance (in essence, pay for it -- it isn't free) then stop complaining about the product. These antisocial kids are the natural and expected result of a complete and utter lack of parenting and your surprise and disdain for it borders on irrational.

In some ways, you're doing what Nutter is doing. You want to ignore reality by wishing -- wishful thinking that if only there were not poor single mothers pumping out another generation of children who are never really raised, etc., the sun would shine over pretty rainbows, the same as Nutter is wishing that if only H'Burg would give him a few new laws all would be well. Well there are these single mothers and parents who sire the next generation of monsters. That's the reality. You can choose to turn your back on it or try to do something about it. Again, you are absolutely right that you bear absolutely no responsibility to try to do anything for your fellow man or to leave a better place behind when you go.

Not everyone can cut a swath much wider than themselves and I'm sure what you leave behind when you go will be good things. But I can, I am and I will and I need the resources to do it. Parochial thinking is an obstacle that we all need to overcome.

[Buckmark.35]

Originally Posted by PAhunter

After a tour of duty as Mayor don’t you think he has his sights set on being Governor someday?

Jack

Please. God. No.

[Qtrborecrazy]

Legal beagle if some one is arrested under one of these so called laws and they are found unconsitutional can nutty nutter have charges filed against him for false inprisonment?

Qtrborecrazy

[Buckmark.35]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

When exactly? Never. Don't do anything to improve the lot of your fellow man, fellow residents of your Commonwealth and fellow Americans. You're right that's it's not your obligation and you bear no responsibility to do a thing.

But number one, don't sit there so sanctamoneous and tell us about how eradicating the entire population of a city will resolve its problems. It's ridiculous to even remotely consider that as a solution. We join wars over foreign gov'ts that do that sort of thing to some of its people. It won't happen here and it shouldn't.

Number two, you might notice that I get annoyed when people lump the entire population of the city into one bad bunch. We've got plenty of problems, but the vast majority of people who live here are decent, honest, hardworking people just like your neighbors out in the burbs. Many of them earn a good deal less than your neighbors and that does create some issues with regard to the city's tax revenue and funds to deal with those who are problems.

Three, the burbs get tremendous benefit from the cities in the sense that the burbs can zone poverty virtually out and push it into concentrated pockets called cities, and that's exactly what tends to happen.

And finally four, yes, the city population includes an inordinate number of feral predators who belong excluded from decent society and in prison. I didn't create them any more than you did. We all did. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility but there is (and will always be) a segment that needs a bit more, shall we say, guidance. If you are unwilling to provide that guidance (in essence, pay for it -- it isn't free) then stop complaining about the product. These antisocial kids are the natural and expected result of a complete and utter lack of parenting and your surprise and disdain for it borders on irrational.

In some ways, you're doing what Nutter is doing. You want to ignore reality by wishing -- wishful thinking that if only there were not poor single mothers pumping out another generation of children who are never really raised, etc., the sun would shine over pretty rainbows, the same as Nutter is wishing that if only H'Burg would give him a few new laws all would be well. Well there are these single mothers and parents who sire the next generation of monsters. That's the reality. You can choose to turn your back on it or try to do something about it. Again, you are absolutely right that you bear absolutely no responsibility to try to do anything for your fellow man or to leave a better place behind when you go.

Not everyone can cut a swath much wider than themselves and I'm sure what you leave behind when you go will be good things. But I can, I am and I will and I need the resources to do it. Parochial thinking is an obstacle that we all need to overcome.

I think that some of these points are valid. The issue herein, is that for a majority of criminals, crime and other illegal activity is a culture. You can't "help" someone who doesn't first want to help themselves. There is an entire culture that like being criminal. You can throw education, money, time, and effort at these problems, but as long as the crime culture remains nothing will change. "Gangsta rap", mob movies and other forms of entertainment that glorify and idealize the crime culture will ultimately breed more who buy into the crime culture. The solution to these problems is diffucult. I see valid points why folks should help, and why folks should not.

My viewpoint is that while I am not responsible FOR the actions and decisions made by others, I do have a responsibility to help those whose live are affected by those who make those poor decisions. Like Philadelphia said, the majority of people in the city are good natured and hardworking people. It's terrible that they're subjected to the fear and lawlessness created by the crime culture. Things can be done to help them. Taking guns away is not one. It's not socialist to help a neighbor.

[GunLawyer001]

I'll help to bail out the sinking boat, as soon as everyone else stops drilling holes in the bottom.

Too many people are enablers for the criminals. Soft judges, liberal newspapers and TV stations that editorialize and slant the news so as not to offend their market, and most importantly a culture that excuses crimes and blames "racism" for all evils. Schools that divorce "self image" from who the little bastards are and what they do (for example, I think that a pregnant illiterate 14 year old girl with a criminal record should feel bad about herself, as should whoever knocked her up.) A Welfare system that rewards helplessness and is indifferent to fraud.

I can't raise your kids. I can't even discipline your kids when they run and scream and throw things near me at the supermarket. I can't control what propaganda the schools pump into these little robots. I can't force the judges to impose long sentences, or the legislators to mandate them. I can't force society to treat 15 year old career criminals like the thugs that they are, or punish a 12 year old murderer as though he killed somebody.

Washington, DC spends a huge amount of money per pupil, and has the worst results, so it isn't just a matter of pouring money into the cesspool.

Since I have no power to change the behavior of the criminals who infest the city, exactly what is my obligation to fix their problems?

BTW, no city or town is allowed to exclude the poor, there's a lot of case law on this. Judges routinely mandate low-income housing as part of any city plan. Philadelphia does provide some jobs for non-resident commuters, who pay the city wage tax but don't get to vote and don't consume much in the way of city services. THAT is what caused the American Revolution, taxation without representation

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia

But number one, don't sit there so sanctamoneous and tell us about how eradicating the entire population of a city will resolve its problems. It's ridiculous to even remotely consider that as a solution. We join wars over foreign gov'ts that do that sort of thing to some of its people. It won't happen here and it shouldn't.

That was not a suggestion, it was a demonstration that Philadelphia's crime problem is caused by the people who live there, not by the drinking water, or some electromagnetic freakish Philadelphia Triangle, or a lack of resources based on location. Replace all the people with a different group of people, and you would not have the same crime problem. It's a population contaminated with a corrupt culture, and that can't be fixed with outside money or the loving assistance of suburbanites, any more than we could turn the Mafia into a legitimate business through enthused singing of Kumbaya. In fact, infusions of cash into a corrupt culture will WORSEN the problem.

[Mohaa Player]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

That was not a suggestion, it was a demonstration that Philadelphia's crime problem is caused by the people who live there, not by the drinking water, or some electromagnetic freakish Philadelphia Triangle, or a lack of resources based on location. Replace all the people with a different group of people, and you would not have the same crime problem. It's a population contaminated with a corrupt culture, and that can't be fixed with outside money or the loving assistance of suburbanites, any more than we could turn the Mafia into a legitimate business through enthused singing of Kumbaya. In fact, infusions of cash into a corrupt culture will WORSEN the problem.

I think we all know what the real problem is in Philly.
MOHAA

[Emptymag]

For the record, I understood the example that was being presented by GunLawyer001.

It was very clear to me that he was not suggesting the eradication of the current population, only stating that people of an entirely different background would not behave in the same way. Different cultures, different behaviors.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by Buckmark.35

I think that some of these points are valid. The issue herein, is that for a majority of criminals, crime and other illegal activity is a culture. You can't "help" someone who doesn't first want to help themselves. There is an entire culture that like being criminal. You can throw education, money, time, and effort at these problems, but as long as the crime culture remains nothing will change. "Gangsta rap", mob movies and other forms of entertainment that glorify and idealize the crime culture will ultimately breed more who buy into the crime culture. The solution to these problems is diffucult

That's not quite true, at least not for the real so-called ghettos. When privileged Johnny with his Lawyer Mommy and Doctor Daddy starts sporting "tats", a lowered impala and "colors", that's cultural, it's part of a culture of rebellion that tries to find the most comfortable element that fits. It's a rebellion against parents who don't have or won't find the time to be parents and listen to their children. All those emotions and troubles that you and I faced growing up, these kids face it too (and sometimes more of it). The only difference is, parents are becoming increasingly less involved in the lives of their children. All of that emotion has to go somewhere, and for the kids that don't have a counselor or a parent to listen and thus they don't have an outlet, those feelings get trapped inside and kids, not liking what's within start to focus outward on their image. The more shocking or popular or independent that image is, the better those kids think they feel. Emo kids, Goth kids, wannabe-gangsta kids, it's all the same and it has nothing to do with entertainment media. On some level, they identify themselves by hiding behind or within what an artist is saying, whether it be DMX, Eminem, Marylin Manson or whatever other cultural shock-rod you want to name.

I grew up in gang neighborhoods. I grew up with gangs and gangbangers, for most of them, it's not the culture that drives them, that's for surbanized kids of status. What drives them is the basic need to survive. When you live with apes, you just can't keep clean; and when you're surrounded by predators, the only language a predator understands is, well, that of another predator. On some level, these predators identify with what the artists and media they prefer are saying. They're not hiding behind it, they're nodding their heads and saying, "yeah, my life is like that".

Most of the kids in the inner-cities aren't really criminals at their core, they're nothing more than organisms engaging in mimicry (both Batesian and Mullerian). If you somehow wiped Philly's population off of the map, the problem would go away, but only for a short time. There's an environment there that tends to breed predators, and unless that changes, cleansing is only a short-term adhesive bandage. Inner-city crime in this country has more to do with environment than it does with cultural or entertainment media.

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

That was not a suggestion, it was a demonstration that Philadelphia's crime problem is caused by the people who live there, not by the drinking water, or some electromagnetic freakish Philadelphia Triangle, or a lack of resources based on location. Replace all the people with a different group of people, and you would not have the same crime problem. It's a population contaminated with a corrupt culture, and that can't be fixed with outside money or the loving assistance of suburbanites, any more than we could turn the Mafia into a legitimate business through enthused singing of Kumbaya. In fact, infusions of cash into a corrupt culture will WORSEN the problem.

Not helpful. Maybe you're right, or maybe not (likely right) but who cares. It ain't gonna happen.

In terms of the costs, I'm thinking more in terms of the CJ system. We don't have enough cops, the DA is grossly underfunded and the prisons overflowing to the point where judges don't give harsh sentences in part because there's no place to put the inmates. On that score, the culture you discuss quickly learns that there are few if any consequences for criminal behavior. Do an armed robbery, plead to robbery, do 11 to 23 months in county. Get out and do it again. The legislative 5 year minimums are a joke because the legislature hasn't bothered to build enough prisons and the mostly poor population of philly isn't brimming with tax dollars to start the crews working on another county facility.

In terms of recidivist programs, they too cost money.

Where the suburbanites will start to care is when crime gets so out of control that it starts to overflow out of the cities and into their neighborhoods. When you have some skin in the game you might take it all a lot more seriously.

Right now, all I see are the usual excuses.