Police Shooting of Mother and Infant Exposes a City’s Racial Tension

[RandomTask]

I love the paid administrative leave, i.e., paid vacation part. Take the cop off his beat and make him take the department's trash to the dumpster, but don't give him a vacation.

My big problem with all this is the seemingly increasing use of military tactics by the police to go after small-time criminals. This dealer was obviously no kingpin.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by RandomTask

I love the paid administrative leave, i.e., paid vacation part. Take the cop off his beat and make him take the department's trash to the dumpster, but don't give him a vacation.

Presumption of innocence works both ways, as it should.

My big problem with all this is the seemingly increasing use of military tactics by the police to go after small-time criminals. This dealer was obviously no kingpin.

100% agreed. They get the toys and training into their budget, and then they have to use them to justify getting more in the budget next year.

[elston32]

Originally Posted by Autonomous

Association is no justification for a extra judicial killing. We are all innocent until proven guilty... Even if there were drugs in the house the last time I checked the penalty was jail not a casket... The mother of these children made some really bad choices. Exposing her children to moron drug dealers is dangerous. That is no justification for killing her.

Thank you for your civil and thoughtful reply, Autonomous.

Although your post was not a direct reply to my post, let me to respond to it, as my post inspired Philadelpia's creative new twist on the proverb I quoted.

First, I completely agree with all the your points regarding the behavior of the Lima S.W.A.T. Team in this case. They could have employed better tactics in attempting to serve the warrant and in apprehending the allegedly drug dealing boyfriend.

That being said, the facts are what they are, and apparently the S.W.A.T. did not emply the best tactics.

We live in the real world, and the authorities, flawed humans just like us, don't always make the best decisions.

As a responsible parent and adult-- living in the real world-- the deceased mother should have exercised better judgement, and realized that her job as a parent is to minimize the risk of bad things happening.

Do bad things happen to good people? Of course they do!!

Do bad things happen to bad people? Definitively.

But bad people are at a higher risk of bad things happening to them.

The deceased woman should have prioritized limiting the risk of bad things happening to her and her loved ones, by being more of a mother and less of a mate. Had she done so, she would not have had a reputed drug dealer in her home as a "father" to her children.

In no way do I justify or condone the authorities killing her, injuring her son and traumatizing her other children.

However, all of our choices have consequences both good and bad.

The deceased mother's choosing to live in the same home with a reputed drug dealer put both her and her children at a greater risk of bad things happening.

Remember: The police aren't the only ones in the world that kill drug dealers.

Stay well.


---elston

[Autonomous]

Originally Posted by elston32

We live in the real world, and the authorities, flawed humans just like us, don't always make the best decisions.

As a responsible parent and adult-- living in the real world-- the deceased mother should have exercised better judgement, and realized that her job as a parent is to minimize the risk of bad things happening.

Remember: The police aren't the only ones in the world that kill drug dealers.

Stay well.


---elston

Thank you as well elston for your civil and thoughtful reply.

I fully recognise that everyone decisions affect what happens to them. Personal responsibility would change allot of the problems we face in today's world. The bad decisions the dead woman made contributed to the horrible situation that caused her death.
The world is a dangerous place. It is full of hateful scary people. We must protect ourselves and the ones we love.
One of the reasons cases like this are so angering to me is that the militarization of the police departments of this country will only bring more of the same. I am not saying that we should give up S.W.A.T. teams only that they should be used more sparingly. Give the S.W.A.T. teams more options than the raid. Train them to do covert style arrests. Allot more money to surveillance. Isolate the threat. Will this eliminate the chance that bystanders will be hurt? No. Will this eliminate the chance of police being injured/killed? No. But i think this will help to reduce the risks.
I also think we need to be more watchful over the "guardians" of our rights.
-A
BTW good posts elston

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by elston32

We live in the real world, and the authorities, flawed humans just like us, don't always make the best decisions.

Neither do the rest of us humans, as you already stated.

As a responsible parent and adult-- living in the real world-- the deceased mother should have exercised better judgement, and realized that her job as a parent is to minimize the risk of bad things happening.

Let's go back to not making the best decisions, if you truly believe that, and if you don't hold regular folks to higher standards than the police and don't have any sort of animosity towards a certain race, class or lifestyle, it's hard to imagine condemning the mother here any more than you are the police.

Let's take this for what it appears to be (though new facts could change this):
A single mother living in a poor part of town. People of this nature generally don't come from strong families or home environments. People of this nature generally don't have many options available to them (at least, not to their knowledge or within their means or abilities). People in this situation (single mothers with low income) generally don't have much self-respect or self-esteem, which keeps them in a vicious cycle of being involved with the wrong men. People in this situation generally don't know of or acknowledge the danger they place their children in, if they actually thought it as being dangerous, they'd try to leave. Many do try, but it's not easy when you're scared, you have low self-esteem and not much money, resources or support from your family to speak of. Once you're in the situation, it's very difficult to get out.

Does that mean the woman is innocent? Hardly, but let's try to understand it from her perspective before we toss such a broad blanket over her.


The police, however, I would hold to a higher standard. They have the tools and resources to know better, and they should be held accountable for any direct mistakes or errors they have made (if any).

[elston32]

Originally Posted by Autonomous

... I am not saying that we should give up S.W.A.T. teams only that they should be used more sparingly. Give the S.W.A.T. teams more options than the raid. Train them to do covert style arrests. Allot more money to surveillance. Isolate the threat. Will this eliminate the chance that bystanders will be hurt? No. Will this eliminate the chance of police being injured/killed? No. But i think this will help to reduce the risks. I also think we need to be more watchful over the "guardians" of our rights. BTW good posts elston

Thanks for the rep. points Autonomous. Back at you!!

I strongly agree that we all should be more active citizens in engaging the the authorities to respect our rights.

Further, I believe that the Lima PD could have employed other police units, instead of the S.W.A.T. Team.

I'm no LEO. However, I believe that S.W.A.T. by definition employ quas-military commando tactics in order to 'shock & awe" their potential targets.

Perhaps the Lima PD could have employed a covert surveillance team to observe the alleged drug dealing boyfriend. Thu,s ascertaining the moment of least risk to apprehend him.

I don't know the rationale behind the LIMA PD's choice of S.W.A.T. over other less risky options.

I pray that the Lima, Ohio community makes this tragedy an opportunity to understand the issues and causes underlying such incidents in their town.

And that both the authorities and the residents can work together--proactively-- to change for the better.

I know, I know-- I won't hold my breath.

But I"ll continue to hope.

Stay well.

---elston

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

Let's go back to not making the best decisions, if you truly believe that, and if you don't hold regular folks to higher standards than the police and don't have any sort of animosity towards a certain race, class or lifestyle, it's hard to imagine condemning the mother here any more than you are the police.

Let's take this for what it appears to be (though new facts could change this):
A single mother living in a poor part of town. People of this nature generally don't come from strong families or home environments. People of this nature generally don't have many options available to them (at least, not to their knowledge or within their means or abilities). People in this situation (single mothers with low income) generally don't have much self-respect or self-esteem, which keeps them in a vicious cycle of being involved with the wrong men. People in this situation generally don't know of or acknowledge the danger they place their children in, if they actually thought it as being dangerous, they'd try to leave. Many do try, but it's not easy when you're scared, you have low self-esteem and not much money, resources or support from your family to speak of. Once you're in the situation, it's very difficult to get out.

Does that mean the woman is innocent? Hardly, but let's try to understand it from her perspective before we toss such a broad blanket over her.


The police, however, I would hold to a higher standard. They have the tools and resources to know better, and they should be held accountable for any direct mistakes or errors they have made (if any).

+1 for a thought out post 97 Rep on your way

[Autonomous]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

Let's take this for what it appears to be (though new facts could change this):
A single mother living in a poor part of town. People of this nature generally don't come from strong families or home environments. People of this nature generally don't have many options available to them (at least, not to their knowledge or within their means or abilities). People in this situation (single mothers with low income) generally don't have much self-respect or self-esteem, which keeps them in a vicious cycle of being involved with the wrong men. People in this situation generally don't know of or acknowledge the danger they place their children in, if they actually thought it as being dangerous, they'd try to leave. Many do try, but it's not easy when you're scared, you have low self-esteem and not much money, resources or support from your family to speak of. Once you're in the situation, it's very difficult to get out.

Does that mean the woman is innocent? Hardly, but let's try to understand it from her perspective before we toss such a broad blanket over her.


The police, however, I would hold to a higher standard. They have the tools and resources to know better, and they should be held accountable for any direct mistakes or errors they have made (if any).

Yea NineseveN. I would have to agree with your bigger picture veiw of the situation. Once again you hit the mark.
The thing that saddens me the most about this situation is that the people most affected by this case will be pushed to the side. Cases like this are used by multiple different players to further their political agendas. At the end of the day it wont be about how to prevent things like this happining in Lima again or improving community relations...
oh well thats par for the cource I guess...
-A

[elston32]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

Let's go back to not making the best decisions, if you truly believe that, and if you don't hold regular folks to higher standards than the police and don't have any sort of animosity towards a certain race, class or lifestyle, it's hard to imagine condemning the mother here any more than you are the police.

Let's take this for what it appears to be (though new facts could change this):
A single mother living in a poor part of town. People of this nature generally don't come from strong families or home environments. People of this nature generally don't have many options available to them (at least, not to their knowledge or within their means or abilities). People in this situation (single mothers with low income) generally don't have much self-respect or self-esteem, which keeps them in a vicious cycle of being involved with the wrong men. People in this situation generally don't know of or acknowledge the danger they place their children in, if they actually thought it as being dangerous, they'd try to leave. Many do try, but it's not easy when you're scared, you have low self-esteem and not much money, resources or support from your family to speak of. Once you're in the situation, it's very difficult to get out.

Does that mean the woman is innocent? Hardly, but let's try to understand it from her perspective before we toss such a broad blanket over her.


The police, however, I would hold to a higher standard. They have the tools and resources to know better, and they should be held accountable for any direct mistakes or errors they have made (if any).

NineseveN, you make excellent points is this post.

I am a recent member to this forum, so perhaps you have not read any of my previous posts on other threads.

I understand-- both sympathetically and empathetically-- the deceased mother's perspective more than you have perceived.

Demographically, I'm categorized as Black racially and Hispanic/Latino ethnically.

Humble origins can be overcome. Her family and friends describe her as a "good mother;" her local churchman claims "outrage" at this loss of life.

Both family and friends provide testimony that she could tell right from wrong. Further, I would venture to guess, that were she still alive, she very well would have aknowledged that letting that man live in her home with her children was not the best choice.

Unfortunately, she can not.

I would hope that women in her circumstances would take Ms.Wilson's tragedy as an abject lesson of what can happen when you live with men who break the law.

Again, remember: The police aren't the only ones in the world that kill drug dealers (and bystanders).

Stay well.


---elston

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by elston32

NineseveN, you make excellent points is this post.

I am a recent member to this forum, so perhaps you have not read any of my previous posts on other threads.

I understand-- both sympathetically and empathetically-- the deceased mother's perspective more than you have perceived.

Demographically, I'm categorized as Black racially and Hispanic/Latino ethnically.

Humble origins can be overcome. Her family and friends describe her as a "good mother;" her local churchman claims "outrage" at this loss of life.

Both family and friends provide testimony that she could tell right from wrong. Further, I would venture to guess, that were she still alive, she very well would have aknowledged that letting that man live in her home with her children was not the best choice.

Unfortunately, she can not.

I would hope that women in her circumstances would take Ms.Wilson's tragedy as an abject lesson of what can when you live with men who break the law.

Again, remember: The police aren't the only ones in the world that kill drug dealers (and bystanders).

Stay well.


---elston

Understood, but let's keep in mind that when living in that situation, the pool of honest men is virtually nil. It's not like stock brokers and accountants are lining up to get involved with a woman with 3/4/5/6/7/8 kids who lives in the ghetto. What do you do when you need that second income? I understand there are options, but how one is raised helps dictate the options you readily recognize.

I'm white, but I grew up in Mount Washington, Beltzhoover and hung out in Oakland and East Liberty growing up to name a few...in the ghetto, no one is innocent...well, no one except the victims...and even then, only sometimes.

That doesn't change the fact that what the police did was seemingly excessive and resulted in the death of a woman who is more or less innocent and a child who is 100% innocent was seriously wounded.

Peace.