The Future of America - DEBATE

[LorDiego01]

I have put together a list of videos that I feel is mandatory watching for Americans of all ages.

Why does Habeus Corpus hates America?. (7m 17s)

Military Commision Act 2006 HR.6166 (8m 57s)

HR.6166, the experts agree. (8m 30s)

And last but not least, finally released for free to the public..

Aaron Russo's "America: Freedom to Fascism" (1hr 49m)

This last movie documents the Federal Reserve System, and what this means and has meant for America. This is sort of like a Michael Moore film, except without the logical fallacies or socialist ideals that he is famous for. Just to wet your appetite, the Federal Reserve System is NOT a part of government, instead, its a private corporation operating at an insane profit.

I'd like to keep the discussion on the "Military Commision Act 2006". Frankly, Im am amazed that nobody is talking about this. Im specifically looking for a logical explanation of why this is necessary or why anybody would support this. Notice that the title of the thread says Debate, so if you regurgitate the republican party line, I will rip it to shreds. Also, this is not a Dems VS Reps thread, so if the only way you can understand politics it to break it down into simple black and white issues, please refrain from posting.

Remember to keep the thread friendly.

DISCUSS.

[phillyd2]

That mindless airhead Keith Olberman on habeas corpus? Is this going to be a joke thread?

Instead of the usual left wing fear mongering scare tactic hyperboles how about real examples of what you are against and let the ripping to shreds begin.

I'll start with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who planned 911. He was captured without a warrant, held without charges, had no access to a lawyer, tortured (btw this cowardly murderer lasted 2 minutes before he started to cry and talk), was not read his rights, did not have a trail by jury, no habeas corpus and then was tortured some more. Now he is going to Gitmo where hopefully a Military Tribunal will sentence this POS to death.

If one is remotely interested in just this one scum bag:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch5.htm

Because of the actions like the ones so distained the ex ESPN news reader the so called "second wave" attacks were stopped.

So lets get out of generalities and explain to us how you would have handled him? Details please. How about Red Cross visits as mandated by the Geneva Convention?

Point being that this country is at war and for over 10 years we were sleepwalking and dreaming that if only we would ignore the previous attacks then our enemy would go away.

How did that work out for us?

For those who would rather learn the facts for themselves instead of from a airhead on MSNBC:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.+3930:

BTW, you should start a new thread on the Federal Reserve System - I may end up agreeing with you if you can come up with a better system.

[LorDiego01]

Originally Posted by phillyd2

That mindless airhead Keith Olberman on habeas corpus? Is this going to be a joke thread?

You gotta be kidding. I offered to keep the thread friendly, and the first thing posted is an ad-hominem attack which sets the tone for the rest of the illogicalities on your post.

Instead of the usual left wing fear mongering scare tactic hyperboles how about real examples of what you are against and let the ripping to shreds begin.

MAN!! That defensive button went off right away, its almost as if a part of the brain just shuts off. I asked to not let this turn into a black and white, mud slingling thread of democrats vs republicans. It even amazes me you'd pull the "fear mongering" card given that the Reps excell at this. I really wished you would have watched the first three vids so you wouldnt have shown up empty handed to the thread, and forced to ask for a synapse of the topic. Also, I asked to stay away from the "party lines" for a reason.

I'll start with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who planned 911. He was captured without a warrant, held without charges, had no access to a lawyer, tortured (btw this cowardly murderer lasted 2 minutes before he started to cry and talk), was not read his rights, did not have a trail by jury, no habeas corpus and then was tortured some more. Now he is going to Gitmo where hopefully a Military Tribunal will sentence this POS to death.

Fantastic. I agree. This guy should have been tortured, tried, tortured again, and then executed. Please watch the first three vids I posted, so you'll understand what this thread is about.


Because of the actions like the ones so distained the ex ESPN news reader the so called "second wave" attacks were stopped.

IF we stick to name calling! And repeat the same mantra over and over again, it becomes true!!!!

So lets get out of generalities and explain to us how you would have handled him? Details please. How about Red Cross visits as mandated by the Geneva Convention?
How's this for a novel idea! If there is evidence that somebody is a terrorist, why not prove it in a public court? Then set extreme penalties for those convicted. There is no need for secret military courts, and judge/executioner type of enforcement.

Point being that this country is at war and for over 10 years we were sleepwalking and dreaming that if only we would ignore the previous attacks then our enemy would go away.

Ah! Alas! you've shown your true colors and proven your disdain for the consitution of this country! Its clearly stated that congress has to issue a declaration of war. When was this declaration issued?

How did that work out for us?

Im gonna tell you how its gonna work. In 2008, when there is a Democratic majority at the white house and in congress in general, THEY WILL HAVE THESE POWERS TOO.


For those who would rather learn the facts for themselves instead of from a airhead on MSNBC:

Again, just to point it out. Insulting those you want to disagree with shows how weak your argument is to begin with.

And just to add this my response, you need to understand that governments and administrations build upon the previous government, which means, that while this changes in law might not affect us today, tomorrow, or next weekend, you can bet your ass that in 15 or 20 years its going to be out of control. The problem is that by the time you cant ignore it anymore, it'll be too late.

[TonyF]

I really wish there were a textual synopsis of the video's you posted. It seems like an interesting thread but to be honest, I'm too lazy to DL and watch all of them.

[phillyd2]

Sorry Lor, but you did not post a question for consideration or debate. Instead you posted the typical left wing rant about the Bush Police State and you use that idiot Keith Olberman as your hit man. You simply can not toss a hand grenade and then complain about the reply not being friendly enough for you. "regurgitate the republican party line" says it all, I think.

I call BS on your entire premise and mock who you use as "evidence"

Maybe if you really want to discuss this issue in a serious manner you may want to rewrite your original post. Otherwise just the same old mindless dribble. We have enough serious issues to be concerned with, yes - including Military Commission Act 2006 - of which I too have concerns but your presentation is just silly. Sorry, just the way I see it.

[LorDiego01]

"evidence"? There is a difference between "evidence" and "opinion". Look 'em up.

Ok.. I dont have much time to write a whole lot, but here it goes..

Im behemently opposed to losing Habeas Corpus in the name of "safety".

For these laws to have been passed, and the great majority of the country to not even pay attention says a lot of the state of affairs nowadays.

Its like, every generation of Americans has had to fight for their freedoms, but this generation rested on their laurels, took this rights for granted and dropped the ball.

I'd be okay with it, if it were actually specified in the law. But the language is SO VAGUE, that for example, the owners of this site could very well be branded "Enemy Combatants" and taken away. I could very well be branded an "enemy combatant" just for writing this thread and post. Heck, you could be branded an E.C. just for responding on this thread!

The way you reacted to the videos I posted, leads me to think that you are a hardcore republican, who will follow the party line all the way to the bottom.

I see these types of republicans as the sort of people who get ripped off, yet are too proud to admit it. Sort of like going into a casino with $100, walking out with $20 and thinking "Gee! Tonight is my lucky night! I just won twenty bucks!!!!"

Remember the Republican "Contract with America" from 10 or so years ago?
Remember the WMDs in Iraq?? Yellow Cake??
The "unnaccountable" trillions in the Pentagon? *Unnacountable means, we cant find the money, but we cant write it as lost either.
Remember the Tax Cuts?

That being said, I also behementy oppose the use of torture. Never mind the hundreds of years we've had as a race to prove that torture is useless. I dont know about you, but I'd say just about anything to get the pain to stop.

"WaterBoarding" is what this government is using on people to get them to talk. Dick Cheney said a few days ago.. "dumping Terrorists heads in a bucket of water is a no brainer".
Here's a history remainder for ya..
The US sented to death and decades of hard labor to Japanese and German personal who used "waterboarding" on American soldiers during WWII.
Are you telling me its ok to do it to "the brown people"? but its not ok to do it to nice white Americans???

During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was seen as EVIL because.... they didnt have Habeas Corpus, they had Gulags, and they routinely tortured people.. humm... is smoke coming out of your ears yet?

And lastly, as the great Keith Olberman says.. if you dont think this is gonna happen to you... what are you going to do if you are ever picked up as an emeny combatant? But you are not given a chance to prove in court that you are not?
Ever think about that for a second?? Do you realize that they can use your own confession, extracted through torture and use it against you in a trial you are not even allowed to attend????

Tell me ONCE, give me ONE INSTANCE, where a government, in the WHOLE history of the world, has taken Habeas Corpus away from "the people" and this has been positive for said "The People"??

Look another thread we had here a bit ago, its called "Patriots", and I tell a little bit about what happened in Argentina during the 70s with a set of laws very similar to this.

Are you thinking yet?? Thinking of what the government will do with these powers in 5, 10 or 20 years?? Look at how far the War on Drugs has come, what a complete failure this has been, and think, just think for a moment what the repercussions of this War on Terror is going to be in the future.

The future of your children.

[Buckmark.35]

As much as this law may prevent bleeding heart liberals from whining about the treatment of a scumbag terrorist, this law also opens the door for the unconstitutional detainment of decent citizens. It is naive to think that the government would not use this power against its own. It has happened before, and if this thing isn't stricken down, it will more than likely happen again.

Anyone who supports this military commission act, cannot in the same breath claim to be a defender of the constitution or of the second amendment. This type of legislation will open the door for other unconstitutional legislation, especially if a Brady sympathizing liberal gets into office. The narrow mindedness of the decision to make this law is simply astounding.

I hate terrorists and everything that they stand for. Bleeding heart liberals also make my stomach turn, but the action taken by this current administration is absolutely ridiculous.

I would like to see terrorist scum suffer as much as the next guy, but not at this cost. I would just as soon see a terrorist bludgeoned with heavy mining equipment then look at him, but I would want to ensure that the person being bludgeoned wasn't Joe Blow from Toledo who said the wrong thing about the president.

Diego is right that torture doesn't necessarily work. Rather than torture the guy, put him on trial. If he's convicted, lets make the penalty death, and lets make it painful. If this person is a terrorist and made people suffer... the least we can do is return the favor.

[phillyd2]

You did not ask - only assumed but for the record I'm hard core Libertarian who disagree with about 60% of the Rep party line (about 95% of the Dem line) but I'm guessing this is not the first time you have been so wrong.

As I reflect on your stated desire for no attacks I wonder if you would reread your last post and reconsider the insults.

But lets take them one by one shall we?

Yes, I do know the difference between "evidence" and "opinion", thank you very much. However it was you who posted them as "mandatory watching for Americans of all ages". Really? Some guys simple "opinion" as mandatory watching? I would guess that you agree with his "opinion" so in your mind the "opinion" must be true. After all, who would believe something they did not think to be true. I would also point out that my use of the term was "...mock who you use as "evidence"". Note the quotes around the word "evidence" and the context it was written. Just because one uses something as evidence does not make it real evidence. Context my friend, context.

As being one of those much touted Americans who has had fought for our freedoms, I'm not sure what you mean here. While I usually laugh and dismiss the usual "thanks for your service" dribble I wonder what you really mean about "this generation". Who has rested on their laurels, took this rights for granted and dropped the ball? Do you mean me personally? this country in general? a certain group? your friends? Whichever it is, I would love to introduce you to many who do not fit such a insulting generalization.

Is your point now that the Military Commission Act 2006 is too vague in some parts? OK, I think that I may agree to some extent but then your original post should have stated so and you should have stated the clause(s) you find so vague. Otherwise I would say that your entire dismissal of the Act as vague.

"Are you telling me its ok to do it to "the brown people"? Well here is a slur that you will excuse if I will not let rest. If you would be kind enough to please point to any of mention or hint by me of the "the brown people". Or are we to the point that we hint that one who disagrees with us is a raciest? I do not know you but from your other post you seem like a decent guy. Are you really sure you want to hint at me being a raciest?

You may think Keith Olberman as great, and that is your right. I however find him a shrill boring airhead who thinks that a nice suit makes him Edward R. Murrow. Not to worry, I also find Bill O'Reilly to be a arrogant idiot. humm, wonder whose ears are smoking now.

For reasons known only to you, you tossed in some extra stuff such as the Contract with America, Tax Cuts, Wasteful Pentagon Spending, etc. Since I do not understand your point (other than Rep are Bad) I will say only that we have no perfect political party and the act of governing is a exercise in compromise. Am I happy about Rep foolish spending? No. Do I think the Dems would be any better? Not in this lifetime! Lesser of two evils? Sure, but I'm ok with that as long as the liberal left wing agenda is slowed.

Side note about Yellow Cake. Niger has only one export, Yellow Cake. You may want to look into what Wissam al-Zahawie (Saddam's boy for buying nuke parts) was doing in Niger during 1999 where he also met with A.Q. Khan who had only one business, selling nuke technology. You may be willing to give Saddam the benefit of a doubt but I do not wish to suspend common sense with such ease. Sorry for the detour.

So lets get to the heart of your retort,

"Tell me ONCE, give me ONE INSTANCE, where a government, in the WHOLE history of the world, has taken Habeas Corpus away from "the people" and this has been positive for said "The People"??

Well if forced to then I would say the country was the United States of America and the instance was the Civil War when Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and we seem to have turned out all right. There are other times too going back to Adams but you only demanded ONE INSTANCE.

Seriously, are you asking if I would support suspending Habeas Corpus? (asking this way would have been a more useful use of your short time). The answer is clearly NO. But I have posted a real world example of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who seems to be a perfect example for this so called debate because everything "illegal" has happened to him. My question remains, what to do with him? You stated that "This guy should have been tortured, tried, tortured again" which is all now legal based on the Military Commission Act 2006. It almost like you are saying that "This guy should have been tortured, tried, tortured again" is a "No Brainer". No worries, I love the ironic as much as the next guy.

Let us not forget that before the Military Commission Act 2006, before 9/11 and even before the evil rein of GW Bush, any and all Presidents (even Jimmy Carter) had the power to suspend Habeas Corpus with the signing of a single piece of paper (the forms have been written since 1949). Will the great Keith Olberman next have a hissy fit about pens and paper?

With apologies to all, especially to LorDiego01, I will bring this puppy to a end by saying that if I was King of the USA my policy would be like that of ancient Rome. USA citizens would be exempt from the Military Commission Act 2006 and all others that wish this great country harm should bear the boot of its full furious effect.

This world and war is a mess. I'm not happy about any of it. I wish for my children a much better world. I wish for my friends no more hot sand in their eyes. However wishing so does not make it so. When confronting these type of issues I always think, what is the alternative? Saying you are against something is easy and lazy. You got a better way of doing things?, I'm all ears and will give you the respect of considering your position fully without the insults. However, pigeon hole me as a cartoon Rep. and we will have a problem.

Peace!

[Willtallica]

I find it disturbing, the title of this thread is "The Future of America," and I really think (hope you guys don't me doing that) the out come of how we treat church burning, white school girl raping, teacher beheading (for teaching firls how to read), and suicide bombing for going to heaven with 72 virgins (whom I feel very, very, very bad for) will ever have any impact on our future. It's almost, or maybe t is a fact that muslims hate . . . people that don't convert to islam.

Here's a little something I made, and these are facts by the way:

Not to long ago the Pope, a man supposedly chosen by the divinity of God himself made a quote from a 1400th century Byzantine emperor who said, "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Well not to long after that Muslims from all over the entire world started violent riots chanting remove the pope, how dare he ignorantly call us violent, and further more even assassinated a nun in their display of outrage.

So all this over what a man simply just said, mind you he only spoke. Well doesn't something seem wrong, and outrageous here? Threw out the 19th Muslim extremist have committed some of the most inhuman crimes against innocent people in the entire history of civilized humanity, and the point is there has never been any outrageous display of Muslims rioting against these muslim extremest.

Let's look at this list of events that occurred against humanity by muslims, but yet no Muslim outrage was seen from them:

• Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
• A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
• Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
• Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
• Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Now some event's that have sprung muslim outrage:

• Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
• Pope makes a quote of historical significants. Muslims are outraged.

Mean anything?

The future of America is grim no doubt, and really I think the hugest down fall right now falls into bug business' interests.