AK Build Party in Philadelphia

[bogey1]

With a cnc machine the owner of the lower has to operate the machine that is creating his lower.

he does not need to own said machine.


IANAL

I thought the owner of the receiver just had to be there, not physically work on the receiver. no?

[Hazarmaveth]

This has brought up an interesting question. GunLawyer, you say manufacturing with the intent to sell requires an FFL, but what about manufacturing with the intent to give as a gift? In other words, can I make a receiver for a friend if he doesn't pay for it?

My understanding was that the FFL requirement applied only to those "in the business of" manufacturing and selling firearms, thus excluding gifts and the like, and meaning it doesn't matter who's operating the CNC or drill press, as long as you're not paying him.

[BimmerJon]

The laws are in black and white and have been tested time and again. The case your referencing is a man had a mechanized CNC mill. He told people to buy certain 80% receivers and meet at his home. He then proceeded to build out all the lowers himself while party goers sat around drinking beer and eating food.

With a cnc machine the owner of the lower has to operate the machine that is creating his lower.

he does not need to own said machine.


IANAL

No law is black and white
Our legal system is based on judicial opinion not fact

[USMC3531]

The Op asked about AK not AR15 build partys, so no cnc is involved or needed. You may build for PERSONAL USE without the intent to sell. If your friend is too lazy/unskilled to build himself or even build with assistance (while supervised) he shouldnt be building IMHO. Not everybody knows how to build and thats fine but if your too lazy to learn from someone they dont need to build at all.

[justashooter]

newbies...

back in the day when kits were cheap and common we used to have weekend long build party barbqs at my house with up to 25 people building FAL, AK, AR, 1919, you name it. we even had an undercover ATF guy who would pretend to be "one of the guys" just to keep an eye on us, and ask at random if anybody had an un-papered machine gun or if anybody wanted to black bag a judge or sell him hand grenades.

nobody ever gave him anything to work with, so, after sneaking around upstairs in my house and stepping on the champagne glasses on my bedroom floor, he would go back to new jersey. then, we would drink all the alcohol in the house, finishing up with chocolate margueritas, some of which ended up on the living room walls, and eat "lemon chicken" fresh off the grill (there is a story behind that), and pass out on the porches and couches and pick-up truck beds.

the point is, as long as you manufacture a receiver through your own effort and increase it's value by bolting the rest of the crap on by yourself, it does not matter where you do it or who is teaching you to do it. conversely, if you bring a case of beer to some guy's garage and give it to him while he finishes your receiver or adds value to it while you watch, a transaction has occurred and the guy has been compensated.

whether a person needs a liscense to engage in the business of gunsmithing depends upon whether he intends to make a profit by pursuit of an organized or systematic or consistently applied exercise in constructing guns or improving their value. this is covered in Title 18, Sec 900 of the USC, and attendant CFR. this hasn't changed since i researched it more than 10 years ago. Title 18 is a federal tax code, and all the statute in it is about tax law. if you are convicted of practicing gunsmithing without a liscence, the root crime you are being convicted of is tax evasion.

[Littleviking]

No law is black and white
Our legal system is based on judicial opinion not fact

your right and being overly cautious is your right.

BUT

there is nothing wrong with doing a build party as long as you follow the black and white laws.

[Littleviking]

I thought the owner of the receiver just had to be there, not physically work on the receiver. no?

To make the law easy to understand I will paraphrase a few things.

you make build or create a firearm for your own personal use that may never be sold or transferred to another person. I am unsure of the legality of transfering to family so I will just say its not legal.


for you to be on the good side of the ATF you must MAKE or BUILD the serialized device portion.

Meaning YOU have to work the mill. YOU have to push the cnc button. YOU have to turn on the drill press and work the machine.

in essence you have to do the "work" involved with YOUR weapon.

all perfectly legal as long as nobody else has a hand in making your lower. AK or AR.

[justashooter]

To make the law easy to understand I will paraphrase a few things.

you make build or create a firearm for your own personal use that may never be sold or transferred to another person. I am unsure of the legality of transfering to family so I will just say its not legal.

absolutely untrue.

you may make a firearm for your personal use. you may sell or gift it without restriction at any time thereafter if you lose interest in it or experience economic need or any other circumstance that causes you to decide to sell/gift it.

ATF acknowledges that you do not legally need to serialize any gun that you build (excepting NFA guns), but there is an opinion letter out from Sterling Nixon (chief firearms examiner for ATF) that says that you must serialize and maker mark "before it enters the stream of interstate commerce". this is an opinion letter, not black letter statutory law, or even CFR, so read it any way you like.

[USMC3531]

may never be sold or transferred to another person. .

This is incorrect. You may sell a homebuild, It cannot be built with the INTENT to sell though. (personaly Id not sell one for liability reasons, but it is legal)

[GunLawyer001]

To make the law easy to understand I will paraphrase a few things.

you make build or create a firearm for your own personal use that may never be sold or transferred to another person. I am unsure of the legality of transfering to family so I will just say its not legal.


for you to be on the good side of the ATF you must MAKE or BUILD the serialized device portion.

Meaning YOU have to work the mill. YOU have to push the cnc button. YOU have to turn on the drill press and work the machine.

in essence you have to do the "work" involved with YOUR weapon.

all perfectly legal as long as nobody else has a hand in making your lower. AK or AR.

absolutely untrue.

you may make a firearm for your personal use. you may sell or gift it without restriction at any time thereafter if you lose interest in it or experience economic need or any other circumstance that causes you to decide to sell/gift it.

ATF acknowledges that you do not legally need to serialize any gun that you build (excepting NFA guns), but there is an opinion letter out from Sterling Nixon (chief firearms examiner for ATF) that says that you must serialize and maker mark "before it enters the stream of interstate commerce". this is an opinion letter, not black letter statutory law, or even CFR, so read it any way you like.

I'm going to pile on and agree with justashooter here; the intent at the time of manufacturing is what controls, NOT what you do with it later. And the serialization doesn't apply to private, non-SOT manufacture of Title I guns intended for personal use. Go ahead and build that homemade shotgun (assuming that you're not prohibited, and state laws allow it). Time passes, and you find that 12 gauge hurts your pansy shoulder. You are free to sell it privately in-state or via an FFL (they have guidance on transferring un-serialized guns). Build your own handgun, the subsequent transfer is more restricted by state law, but you can still sell or give it away in accordance with applicable state & federal laws.