My New Mosin 91/30S!!

[Smalls]

I found this little gem buried in the back of a local gun store. I cross checked a few of the serials and a few of the things to see if it was fake or not. I can't tell with the scope but the rest of the gun seems to ba great

Its a 1943 All numbers matching, No crown, No Counterbore, 91/30s. It appears to have the Russian Symbols stamped onto the barrel and scope but I don't have any white crayons to show the one on the reciver. The rifiling appears to be crisp.

I had a gunsmith clean it and check it out for me. He said it was the worst rifle he has cleaned in a long time. He said it took about 150 patches to get it all cleaned up but it seems like a pretty decent weapon he said.

I hope it's truly authentic. If not, no biggie. I plan to hang onto it anyway.


Sorry about the crappy pictures. Im going to the range tomorrow. I hope to get some better ones.

[Kaos]

What did she run you? Range report required.

[Karl/PA]

It is import stamped?

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by Kaos

What did she run you? Range report required.

It set me back a nip over 400.


Karl- It looks like it says C I A on the side but I can't quite make it out.

[TXDMERC73]

thats a very nice Mosin, let us know how it shoots long range with that scope.

[Smalls]

Originally Posted by TXDMERC73

thats a very nice Mosin, let us know how it shoots long range with that scope.

Thanks!

I plan on getting it to the range tomrrow. Hopefully it stays nice out.

[Sweet James]

Nice piece. What a beauty.

[PA Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Smalls

Its a 1943 All numbers matching, No crown, No Counterbore, 91/30s. ...

Well done, you hit the highlights of making an intelligent decision. All matching isn't as critical as verifying headspace. I have yet to hear of a Mosin blowing up or bursting a casing, but I still check it.

More info:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...-question.html (Mosin Nagant Russian M44 question)
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...=2007&safe=off
http://www.google.com/search?complet...ace%22&spell=1
http://www.google.com/search?complet...=Google+Search
http://www.switchbarrel.com/Head.htm
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...lus-rifle.html (How important is it to check the headspace in a Milsurplus rifle?)
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=41

You should be able to buy a button-style gauge for about $20, assuming you aren't successful finding anyone with a gauge near you.

Gauge sources:
http://www.clymertool.com/headspac/index.html
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...il.aspx?p=6635
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/gauges.asp
http://www.midwayusa.com/
http://www.google.com/search?complet...24&btnG=Search

Clymer
Forster
Midway
Brownells

...more...

Counterboring is a process that removes the interior surface of the bore at the muzzle for an inch or more down the bore, and reshapes the "crown" where the counterboring stops. It's a dead-giveaway of a major rebuild, and very likely abusive cleaning techniques that led to cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. The Mosin rifle was originally issued with a false muzzle (kit photo link) to prevent this, unfortunately it wasn't always used. So, I avoid counterbored muzzles if I intend to resell later, shoot now or both.

-- --

Laminated stocks appeared very late on Mosins in W.W.II, and I suspect they were mostly limited to M1944 carbines. Laminated M1891/30 stocks were less common, laminated M1938s were very rare. And most of the M1938 laminated stocks were M1944 carbine stocks (recess cut for the folding M44 bayonet). There were a few surplus arms peddlers selling laminated M1938s, but all were counterbored. Interestingly, the laminated stock was a stopgap measure to make spare stocks from wood scraps that would have been otherwise unsuitable for gun stocks. The cross grain structure tended to cancel the effect of warping from heat changes and humidity, making these stocks better than the hardwood conventional stocks they replaced. All the M1891/30 laminated stocks that I'm aware of were replaced after the end of W.W.II.

All matching numbers come in two basic flavors, matched and so-called "forced match". Matched can be all original, or incomplete gun with parts later added and machine-stamped after the fact to match. It's hard to tell the difference, particularly if the same stamping machine was used to match the more-recently added parts. Forced match means one or more witness-marked part was misnumbered, most likely from a donor gun elsewhere. The original number was crossed out and a new number was stamped or electro-penciled on the surface. Electro pencilling was done mostly after the end of W.W.II, so it's a good clue the specimen's a post-war rebuild.

Example of force-match on an SKS. Click to enlarge.

• Mosin rifles made or rebuilt after approximately 1930 are found in three major models: M91/30, M1938 and M1944. The 1938 and 1944 are roughly the same rifle, the 1944 has a side-folding bayonet, the 1938 carbine lacks this feature, and does not take a bayonet. While intuition steers many towards selecting the bayonetted model, the 1938 is actually a little better balanced since the bayonet folds on the side of the 1944 (details, photos). There's also been quite a bit of discussion how the bayonet position affects zero on the 1944. I prefer the M1891/30 or the M1938 carbine, and the bayonet on the M1944 makes the carbine feel a little unbalanced to me. Not enough to be problematic, but enough that the M1938 gets first pick in the range case.
• They fire 7.62x54R ammunition. Right now it's still available, but the selection is getting limited to 2-3 choices. The good news is Mosin rifles are miserly with ammunition, so a 440-round tin should last a while. Stock up when you find it cheap, not when you need it.
• If you're not accustomed to rifles, consider trying out a friend's rifle first. Ideally a 22, then work your way up. The 7.62x54R that the Mosin fires is a high-powered rifle round by today's standards. They also have a bit of a report (and recoil) and 1-2 foot fireballs at the M1938 & M1944 carbine muzzle aren't unheard of.
• Check head clearance (definition) before firing for the first time. (details)
• Purchasing selection points - I usually ask for all matching witness numbers and avoid counterbored muzzles. It's a cosmetic issue since I want them to retain as much collectible value as possible. Also, laminated stocks seem to have a little more collector interest than the original hardwood stock.
• Please familiarize yourself with bolt disassembly and reassembly, and also setting firing pin protrusion before firing your Mosin.

Originally Posted by Smalls

I hope it's truly authentic. If not, no biggie. I plan to hang onto it anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. This batch that came into the US within the past 2-3 years were originally though to be fakes. I did get two known fakes, and it was obvious. I ordered two from Southern Ohio Gun (http://www.southernohiogun.com/mn.htm). They verbally assured me they were all "original Russian". The guns arrived in two business days.

Upon arrival, I found the scopes had been dismounted which is perfectly acceptable to protect the scope and the mounts.

Accessories included slings with loops, ammunition pouch, multi-purpose tool, crossbar, jag, muzzle cap (false muzzle) and hub for attaching crossbar to cleaning rod. Also included in addition to the scopes were leather lens caps and a canvas scope cover.

I made two immediately obvious discoveries. First, one of the scope mount bases was broken.

Upon closer inspection the mount was made from a lightweight cast metal. The grain structure reminded me of either pot metal or very cheap cast aluminum. Further examination revealed the following:

• The thumbscrew was threaded differently than the original PU example, it appeared to be a 3/16x14 automotive bolt whose head had been machined down & knurled. The original threads require periodic tightening, these coarse threads would not have held zero for more than a few shots at best.
• The scope mount was also made of a similar non-ferrous cast metal as the base. The original scope mount and base were both made of machined steel, and for a reason. The length of the scope mount acts as a lever, concentrating twisting forces on the mount. To maintain zero, these parts must be very tough. One example didn’t survive being shipped without a scope!
  
  
• The surviving base would not accept the scope mount. The opening clearance between the front ball joint and the rear mounting clamp is too close together. It’s easily fixed with a little filing or milling, but should have been caught before delivery. Some of the finish had been worn off near the clamp screw, indicating someone had tried to attach the scope, and used force to fully seat it. This is an obvious error the Soviets would not have made.
• The scope mount height is far higher than the originals. The original scope measures 7/8” from the top of the chamber to the bottom of the scope. On this example, it measured 1 ½”! Firing an original requires learning a new type of shooting style. With the Mosin sniper, the correct posture is more of a chin-weld than the usual cheek weld. Raising the scope an additional 5/8” moves the scope beyond the range of the chin-weld technique, and requires the use of a cheek pad.
  
  
• The bolt handles are very likely fake. There is evidence of recent welding under the bolt handle elbow, a dead give-away of a reproduction. Originals were originally machined to 3 ¼” long and bent down. This process results in a smooth radius along the length of the bolt handle stalk with a slight indentation where the anvil concentrated the bending force. The bolt handle on a standard Mosin rifle is 1 5/8”. While annoying, this isn’t a deal breaker either since it’s an easy fix. The bolt handle attaches to the bolt body, which doesn’t contain chamber pressure under normal conditions. This means the bolt body can be replaced without changing head clearance, as long as the original bolt head is retained.
• They are CAI import-marked. Unfortunately this may explain a lot.

Later, I bought two more from another source that had the correct steel mounts. Comparing this to a known original in my collection leads me to think either they're excellent quality fakes or true sniper rifles. They should work just fine on the range. Either way, they represent a real bargain or the steal of the century. At the current market price, the purchase price is about equal to the sum of the parts: a scope, mount and a rifle in excellent condition. This alone makes them a bargain.

And there is yet another category of reproductions: "recommissioned" snipers. These are sniper rifles that were converted back to the standard 91/30 configuration in the USSR or Russia, exported to the US, then re-configured as sniper rifles after arriving in the US. Ex-snipers are easy to spot since they'll have scope mount holes visible on the inside of the receiver.

The simplicity of the Mosin makes accuracy improvements straightforward. If it doesn't shoot to your liking, keep track of the ammunition you're using, smooth the trigger and check the barrel bedding (stock clearance). And they will shoot well:


Even without a scope:



And as a closing thought, Mosins are -very- habit forming & tend to multiply fast. You have been warned.

[Smalls]

Range Report:

This thing shoots wonderfully! I only shout about 15 rounds out of it due to inclimate weather but I loved every trigger pull.

Recoil honestly isn't that bad. I think it's a tad worse than a .308 but can be resolved with a pad. I have no discomfort this morning. I was shooting Russian surplus.

I found out, everything on this rifle is genuine but the scope. It's a knock-off. I didn't have a chance to sight in the scope but with the iron sights I put two within an inch at 100 yards. I thought was decent never shooting the gun before.

I learned my lesson about cleaning it right away. I got sidetracked when I got home and didn't get to it till this morning. I spent a good hour and a half cleaning the rust and crap out of it until I got clean patches.

So far it was a good deal for me. I'm going to go on a mission to find a scope, since the rest of the rifle is practially untouched.. That should increase the valuse a good amount. I'm still going to shoot the snot out of it though.