Scheduled Instant Check Outage 9/2 - 9/6

[Rick O'Shea]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

I will.
I don't see the problem. The law is very clear..
Someone comes in tomorrow for a transfer. They fill out paperwork and I call.
No answer and I write the time and date down. 48 hours later I call again. No answer = call customer to come pick up.

Pa. Patriot I have to agree with you. I've looked at the various news articles posted or linked to in this thread, and I don't see the "suspension" of gun sales during the PICS outage.

What I see are headlines and reporting that say there will be a suspension of sales, but the actual quotes of the PA officials do not discuss this at all. The direct quotes reported only seem to discuss things like PICS will be down, or the duration of the PICS outage or that gun purchasers will be inconvenienced a few days, etc. I don't see anything reported as actually said by any official as being inconsistent with § 6111.1, which requires a 48 hour waiting period during the PICS outage.

Looks more like it's the media's and the current administration's desire obfuscate the situation to the point that a de facto suspension of gun sales occurs during the PICS outage.

[nijwnfi]

The media spins the story to say, "Just a few dealers are upset by this". They keep showing the same footage of Larry from Trops.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shea

Pa. Patriot I have to agree with you. I've looked at the various news articles posted or linked to in this thread, and I don't see the "suspension" of gun sales during the PICS outage.

What I see are headlines and reporting that say there will be a suspension of sales, but the actual quotes of the PA officials do not discuss this at all. The direct quotes reported only seem to discuss things like PICS will be down, or the duration of the PICS outage or that gun purchasers will be inconvenienced a few days, etc. I don't see anything reported as actually said by any official as being inconsistent with § 6111.1, which requires a 48 hour waiting period during the PICS outage.

Looks more like it's the media's and the current administration's desire obfuscate the situation to the point that a de facto suspension of gun sales occurs during the PICS outage.

But the impact of that is that many gun stores (read most) WON'T be selling guns because the letter they got from the PSP doesn't say they can still sell guns. So regardless of what the law really says, gun sales are being shut down.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shea

Pa. Patriot I have to agree with you. I've looked at the various news articles posted or linked to in this thread, and I don't see the "suspension" of gun sales during the PICS outage.

What I see are headlines and reporting that say there will be a suspension of sales, but the actual quotes of the PA officials do not discuss this at all. The direct quotes reported only seem to discuss things like PICS will be down, or the duration of the PICS outage or that gun purchasers will be inconvenienced a few days, etc. I don't see anything reported as actually said by any official as being inconsistent with § 6111.1, which requires a 48 hour waiting period during the PICS outage.

Looks more like it's the media's and the current administration's desire obfuscate the situation to the point that a de facto suspension of gun sales occurs during the PICS outage.

Exactly. The provisions for an outage are written in the law, as you confirmed.
Why on earth would a dealer not just follow the law.
The notice I received from the PSP says nothing about a suspension of sales, only a PICS outage.
HOWEVER, the letter also states they "recommend" that you hold all calls until the system is announced back on-line" ?!? What kind of idiocy is that? Sounds like they are trying to persuade people into thinking you can't conduct sales.

Moot issue as the law is clear. PICS outage = 48 hour wait max

Me thinks too many dealers are too busy bitching and should be refreshing themselves on the law. Don't get me wrong, they SHOULD be bitching. This outage is 100% unnecessary for a one server environment and is purely budget based. But the issue of gun sales being "suspended" is not true and is only true in dealers (and the media) incorrect perception of what is going on.
The truth is there is going to be a PICS outage and during which the procedures for sales changes slightly but is not "suspended".

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

But the impact of that is that many gun stores (read most) WON'T be selling guns because the letter they got from the PSP doesn't say they can still sell guns. So regardless of what the law really says, gun sales are being shut down.

VERY good point.
I contend that as a dealer you should already know the law. Why on earth wouldn't you?

[mauser]

I went into the office of my district Representative, Mauree Gingrich, talked to her assistant, and asked if they could shed any light on the situation for me. I left my email address so they could make some phone calls and get back to me.
Here is the response I got.
(This was 8-24-07, before I left for vacation, her response was very timely, I'm just getting around to passing it along now because I was obviously busy with a vacation).

Hello Jim,

We contacted the State Police Department and this is what we found regarding the PA Instant Check System:

Money is now in the budget to update the Criminal History Record database, which is a component of the PA instant check system or PICS. PICS is composed of the National Instant Check System AND the state system which includes mental health, PFA's and criminal history check, etc.

The State Police have done research on when would be the best time to do the update which requires the criminal history part to be shut down for several days. They had to take into consideration doing the shut down asap and the time which would have the least affect which is the first week in September. The Governors' panel is going to be reviewing the data next week and confirming whether or not the shutdown will be that first week in September.

The reason they cannot just do a Federal check is because the PICS includes a federal check, but also has the state components.

Also, the reason they are doing the update on the Criminal History Record database is because the system they are using was designed in the mid 80's.

I hope this information is helpful. Let me know if you need anything else.

Have a great day!

Jamie Miller
Legislative Assistant to
Rep. Mauree Gingrich
717-270-1905

[D-FENS]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Exactly. The provisions for an outage are written in the law, as you confirmed.
Why on earth would a dealer not just follow the law.
The notice I received from the PSP says nothing about a suspension of sales, only a PICS outage.
HOWEVER, the letter also states they "recommend" that you hold all calls until the system is announced back on-line" ?!? What kind of idiocy is that? Sounds like they are trying to persuade people into thinking you can't conduct sales.

Moot issue as the law is clear. PICS outage = 48 hour wait max

Me thinks too many dealers are too busy bitching and should be refreshing themselves on the law. Don't get me wrong, they SHOULD be bitching. This outage is 100% unnecessary for a one server environment and is purely budget based. But the issue of gun sales being "suspended" is not true and is only true in dealers (and the media) incorrect perception of what is going on.
The truth is there is going to be a PICS outage and during which the procedures for sales changes slightly but is not "suspended".

I've talked with an FFL about this a bit recently. To be honest, I think it's over-simplifying the situation to say dealers should just follow the law. A big concern are the repercussions in the long term. Here's the possible scenarios.

1: FFL calls PICS, waits 48 hours, permits transfer, paperwork audited regularly there-after
2: FFL calls PICS, waits 48 hours, permits transfer, PA strips FFL
3: FFL calls PICS, waits 48 hours, permits transfer, PA strips FFL, sues FFL holder and transferee for return of firearm.

Now, some of the bigger stores like Cabela's, Gander Mountain and Wal-Mart may have the money to fight the likely outcomes listed above but they won't because it probably won't be worth it for them. Negative press, court costs higher than likely sales during the period not to mention it's not their only source of income.

The little guys on the other hand... It probably is a decent size of their income but the costs to fight any action and stress simply isn't worth it. The risks are too great, not o mention, I don't think many FFL's want to sell to people that may or may not be able to pass a background check.

In short, I don't think it's fair to pin the inability to purchase arms on a dealer/FFL. When you have the mafia in the Governors mansion, expect retribution outside the letter of the law.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

VERY good point.
I contend that as a dealer you should already know the law. Why on earth wouldn't you?

I agree, they should, but they don't, and they're not going to let me or some other gun owner convince them otherwise.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by TheHighChild

I've talked with an FFL about this a bit recently. To be honest, I think it's over-simplifying the situation to say dealers should just follow the law. A big concern are the repercussions in the long term. Here's the possible scenarios.

1: FFL calls PICS, waits 48 hours, permits transfer, paperwork audited regularly there-after
2: FFL calls PICS, waits 48 hours, permits transfer, PA strips FFL
3: FFL calls PICS, waits 48 hours, permits transfer, PA strips FFL, sues FFL holder and transferee for return of firearm.

Now, some of the bigger stores like Cabela's, Gander Mountain and Wal-Mart may have the money to fight the likely outcomes listed above but they won't because it probably won't be worth it for them. Negative press, court costs higher than likely sales during the period not to mention it's not their only source of income.

The little guys on the other hand... It probably is a decent size of their income but the costs to fight any action and stress simply isn't worth it. The risks are too great, not o mention, I don't think many FFL's want to sell to people that may or may not be able to pass a background check.

In short, I don't think it's fair to pin the inability to purchase arms on a dealer/FFL. When you have the mafia in the Governors mansion, expect retribution outside the letter of the law.

THC has made some excellent points, again, it doesn't matter if an FFL does this and goes to court and fights any prosecution that may arise if he or she gets their business shut down and has to pay for that defense...they'd spend more money on lawyers than they'll lose in gun sales and no one sane wants to go through that.

[edstephan]

Yesterday, after the hearing I was told that when the FFL calls in the transferee will be rejected not put in pending as per the law. This will then fall on the purchaser to get a reversal letter. It only took me 3 months to get my letter of reversal
Ed