Auto-opening knives

[PA452]

Are these legal to carry in PA? I have a couple Benchmade push-button auto openers I bought in other states while I was in the military. Are they legal to carry in PA as a pocket knife?

[Eugene V. Debs]

Originally Posted by PA452

Are these legal to carry in PA? I have a couple Benchmade push-button auto openers I bought in other states while I was in the military. Are they legal to carry in PA as a pocket knife?

Automatic, no. Spring-assisted, yes*.

*Legal to own, but not necessarily to carry depending on your local jurisdiction. Some cities say you can't carry a knife with a blade over a certain amount unless for work purposes.

ETA: And just double check this with someone else, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Hopefully GunLawyer, gnbrotz, knight, or unloved will jump in here soon, as they're normally up on these kinds of questions.

[gnbrotz]

In a word, no.

§908. Prohibited offensive weapons.

(a) Offense defined.-A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive weapon.

(b) Exceptions.

(1) It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. §5801 et seq.), or that he possessed it briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from an aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any intent or likelihood that the weapon would be used unlawfully.

(2) This section does not apply to police forensic firearms experts or police forensic firearms laboratories. Also exempt from this section are forensic firearms experts or forensic firearms laboratories operating in the ordinary course of business and engaged in lawful operation who notify in writing, on an annual basis, the chief or head of any police force or police department of a city, and, elsewhere, the sheriff of a county in which they are located, of the possession, type and use of offensive weapons.

(3) This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

(c) Definitions.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Firearm." Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive, or the frame or receiver of any such weapon. "Offensive weapons" Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

(d) Exemptions.-The use and possession of blackjacks by the following persons in the course of their duties are exempt from this section:

(1) Police officers, as defined by and who meet the requirements of the act of June 18, 1974 (PL. 359, No. 120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

(2) Police officers of first class cities who have successfully completed training which is substantially equivalent to the program under the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

(3) Pennsylvania State Police officers.

(4) Sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of the various counties who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

(5) Police officers employed by the Commonwealth who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

(6) Deputy sheriffs with adequate training as determined by the Pennsylvania Commis*sion on Crime and Delinquency.

(7) Liquor Control Board agents who have satisfactorily met the requirements of the Municipal Police Education and Training Law.

(Chgd. by L.2002, Act 132(1), eff. 1/5/2003.)

§908.1. Use or possession of electric or electronic incapacitation device.

(a) Offense defined.-Except as set forth in subsection (b), a person commits an offense if the person does any of the following:

(1) Uses an electric or electronic incapacitation device on another person for an unlawful purpose.

(2) Possesses, with intent to violate paragraph (1), an electric or electronic incapacitation device.

(b) Self defense.-A person may possess and use an electric or electronic incapacitation device in the exercise of reasonable force in defense of the person or the person's property, pursuant to Chapter 5 (relating to general principles of justification), if the electric or elec*tronic incapacitation device is labeled with or accompanied by clearly written instructions as to its use and the damages involved in its use.

(c) Prohibited possession.-No person prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) may possess or use an electric or electronic incapacitation device.

(d) Grading.-An offense under subsection (a) shall constitute a felony of the second degree if the actor acted with the intent to commit a felony. Otherwise any offense under this section is graded as a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(e) Exceptions.-Nothing in this section shall prohibit the possession or use by, or the sale or furnishing of any electric or electronic incapacitation device to, a law enforcement agency, peace officer, employee of a correctional institution, county jail or prison, or deten*tion center, the National Guard or reserves or a member of the National Guard or reserves for use in their official duties.

(f) Definition.-As used in this section, the term "electric or electronic incapacitation device" means a portable device which is designed or intended by the manufacturer to beused, offensively or defensively, to temporarily immobilize or incapacitate persons by means of electric pulse or current, including devices operating by means of carbon dioxide propel*lant. The term does not include cattle prods, electric fences or other electric devices when used in agricultural, animal husbandry or food production activities.

(Added by L.2002, Act 132(2), eff. 1/5/2003.)

[unloved]

Originally Posted by Eugene V. Debs

Automatic, no. Spring-assisted, yes*.

*Legal to own, but not necessarily to carry depending on your local jurisdiction. Some cities say you can't carry a knife with a blade over a certain amount unless for work purposes.

All accurate information. I'd just like to add that some cities say you can't carry a knife at all, except for work purposes, while you're working.

[Eugene V. Debs]

Ask and ye shall receive. I rub a little lamp to summon gnbrotz and unloved.

[PA452]

Thanks for the quick replies guys, even though the answer sucks.

So basically, with my LTCF I can carry a loaded SBR AR15 in public, or a concealed pistol, but a knife that opens with the push of a button is a no-go.

[unloved]

Originally Posted by PA452

Thanks for the quick replies guys, even though the answer sucks.

So basically, with my LTCF I can carry a loaded SBR AR15 in public, or a concealed pistol, but a knife that opens with the push of a button is a no-go.

Exactly. Aside from the obvious Constitutional and tyranny issues however, I don't consider it to be a real problem. Beyond the cool factor, automatic knives offer no advantage over fixed blades, or modern manual one hand openers.

[MDJschool]

Originally Posted by PA452

Are these legal to carry in PA? I have a couple Benchmade push-button auto openers I bought in other states while I was in the military. Are they legal to carry in PA as a pocket knife?

I don't know. What do Pa.Const. Art I, Sec 21 and 25 say? We really don't need a statute like 18pacs6120 to preempt arms regulation because the constitution already does that. The only reason we might need statutes to preempt is for the purpose of defeating sovereign immunity for civil suit. If the knife is an arm, (and I don't see why not since our military uses them, warfare has been reduced to intermediate distances in cities, what's different about knives and bayonets or trench spikes, etc.,) then it makes ordinances unconstitutional also.

An instructor suggested that (b)(2) and (b)(3) might be elements of the offense. I don't know what case law says or does not say on this matter, so I will have to check.

If you're not banned from firearms via 922 or 6105, or some other unknown legal disability, then you shouldn't be able to be convicted for POW, because (a) doesn't apply to those who aren't prohibited from firearms. Some of you will balk at that presumption, but you need only understand English and that the judiciary can't substitute words or make up their own meanings to improve a statute.

Suppose the knife is a switchblade, carried on the public street in Perry county. We consider solely the charge of 18pacs908.

A person who - PA453
except as authorized by law - (b)(3)
possesses - carries
any offensive weapon - switchblade
So it seems like at first pass, PA453 qualifies for an offense, however,
This section - ss908
shall not apply to - eliminates possibility probable cause for
any person - PA453
who otherwise uses or possesses any firearm - a person who owns or carries firearms
for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth - can't carry to commit a murder or robbery (for example) or if prohibited by 18pacs6105, but carrying for defense of himself and his state is always a good purpose.

"Person who" precedes a condition or quality a person possesses, not a a condition conferred by instant action. It is not "person who is possessing" or "this subsection only applies when the 'offensive weapon' is a sawed-off shotgun."

What this says to me is that those who aren't possessing or using in the perpetration of crimes or aren't banned by 6105 can possess and carry all the POWs they want, lawfully (this is an interpretation based on construction and not an analysis of court cases.)

I'm sure several would prefer I put a caveat emptor disclaimer because of the high likelihood of (unlawful) arrest and prosecution. It's fine if you err on the side of caution. If you are erring on the side of caution but you would like to lawfully carry POWs and think you have a constitutional or statutory entitlement, however, and the nature of the law makes the threat so real, instant, and severe that you shy away from lawful conduct, (an opinion I've read suggests) the federal district courts, or wherever you may bring a 1983 suit, should recognize you have at least a 1983 argument that may not be summarily dismissed.

Once I get a handle on drafting legislation and getting legislators to adopt it as a cause, 908 is one of my targets because it's retarded not only in content but in structure.

[steve_010]

Just lop off your other hand and they'll let you carry a switchblade*

*something like that...I never looked into those handicap laws, etc.

[ehidle]

Originally Posted by MDJschool

Suppose the knife is a switchblade, carried on the public street in Perry county. We consider solely the charge of 18pacs908.

A person who - PA453
except as authorized by law - (b)(3)
possesses - carries
any offensive weapon - switchblade
So it seems like at first pass, PA453 qualifies for an offense, however,
This section - ss908
shall not apply to - eliminates possibility probable cause for
any person - PA453
who otherwise uses or possesses any firearm - a person who owns or carries firearms
for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth - can't carry to commit a murder or robbery (for example) or if prohibited by 18pacs6105, but carrying for defense of himself and his state is always a good purpose.

...

What this says to me is that those who aren't possessing or using in the perpetration of crimes or aren't banned by 6105 can possess and carry all the POWs they want, lawfully (this is an interpretation based on construction and not an analysis of court cases.)

"Firearm" is narrowly defined by statute in PA. The exception does not apply to non-firearms such as switchblades, IMHO.

Of course, I agree with you that any prohibition on any type of arms for defense purposes is unconstitutional (not to mention wholly immoral). It is a crime against humanity to deprive a person of their right to defend their own life by whatever means necessary against an unlawful attempt to end it.