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Old November 22nd, 2009, 10:58 PM
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Default Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

I have a 1953 Romanian TTC that has a peculiarity to it when trying to rack the slide.

The slide gets stuck once the hammer gets to about half cock. If you really strong arm it, you can get it to complete its cycle. However, if you pull the hammer back first, the slide moves freely and is easily racked.

I believe this problem is related to a burr on the firing pin block, but would like somebody with far more experience to confirm this for me. Also, any suggestion on how to remove the burr myself (if that is the problem) would be very welcomed!

I have included pictures of the slide at the point of where it gets stuck as well as the firing pin block burr that I believe is causing the problem. The third picture is the same thing as the firing pin block burr but with it circled. If you right click on the pictures and select open in new window or open in new tab, they are larger and more detailed.

One last non smithing question about the TTC. Does anybody know why the pistol is marked Romania by CAI but it has marking that are similar to the Ishevsk markings on my Mosin rifle? I know it is a Russian design. I know that the Romanians and the Russians were sort of WWII allies for a bit and then enemies when the Russians switched to the Allies. I know that the Russians had control of Romania following the end of WWII. Were these Russian guns originally? Were they guns that were started in Russia and completed in Romania? Are they completely Romanian? Any information really would be welcomed!

If anybody has any recommendation on the sights as well, I'd love to hear them.

Thank you in advance!
-Zach
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CockingTTC.jpg (332.7 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg TTCFP1.jpg (160.1 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg TTCFP2.JPG (84.0 KB, 33 views)
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

I own the same pistol, same year of production and have the same issue with mine.

Can't rack the slide in a half cock, right? And sometimes trying to rack from hammer down causes it to get stuck at half cock...

The solution is to cock the hammer before racking. I do not think they are supposed to be racked from hammer down/half cock. If you rack it REALLY fast it sometimes doesn't get stuck, but every one I have handled doesn't like it when I do that.

As for the markings, those are Romanian. On the right side of the trigger guard is one, I forget where the others are ATM. All original though.

As for the sights, I used white nail polish to coat my front sight. Helps me line them up better. AFAIK there are no replacement sights and very few aftermarket parts for the tok.

BTW, '53 is the most common year of production of Romy TTC's, which makes yours and mine brothers to a million others :P
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

Thank you for the fast reply! I'm thinking maybe I'll get some oil based modeling paint and paint the front sight. It smells better than nail polish in my opinion although I don't know how easy it is to remove. Good idea though!

And I should mention that the pistol does function 100% when firing (aside from the occasional light primer strike on the hard surplus primers) and seems to recock itself just fine (as I'm sure yours does as well).

-Zach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-Mumit View Post
I own the same pistol, same year of production and have the same issue with mine.

Can't rack the slide in a half cock, right? And sometimes trying to rack from hammer down causes it to get stuck at half cock...

The solution is to cock the hammer before racking. I do not think they are supposed to be racked from hammer down/half cock. If you rack it REALLY fast it sometimes doesn't get stuck, but every one I have handled doesn't like it when I do that.

As for the markings, those are Romanian. On the right side of the trigger guard is one, I forget where the others are ATM. All original though.

As for the sights, I used white nail polish to coat my front sight. Helps me line them up better. AFAIK there are no replacement sights and very few aftermarket parts for the tok.

BTW, '53 is the most common year of production of Romy TTC's, which makes yours and mine brothers to a million others :P
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Old November 22nd, 2009, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

I've had one since my 21st at the end of August, put maybe 500 rounds through her so far and not a bad strike, hangfire or anything but a BANG on a round yet.

If yours is anything like mine it'll love Romanian surplus. For me, I have luck with Yugo and Romanian but lousy luck with Polish. Split case city, and my shots are all over the place to boot. The new Winchester stuff is nice too as is Wolf HP although with the later I once had a round come unseated in chambering and it dumped power all inside the gun, freezing the action.

Good luck, and always remember; the 1911 might me the toks more impressive older brother but he still can't punch through a Kevlar helmet like the tok can
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

I bought a tin of Romanian Surplus and a bunch of Bulgarian surplus on Stripper clips. There have been a handful of light primer strikes, but all of the rounds fired.

I don't have nearly as many rounds through mine as you do. I am sitting on like 2000 rounds though that I plan to blow through.

-Zach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-Mumit View Post
I've had one since my 21st at the end of August, put maybe 500 rounds through her so far and not a bad strike, hangfire or anything but a BANG on a round yet.

If yours is anything like mine it'll love Romanian surplus. For me, I have luck with Yugo and Romanian but lousy luck with Polish. Split case city, and my shots are all over the place to boot. The new Winchester stuff is nice too as is Wolf HP although with the later I once had a round come unseated in chambering and it dumped power all inside the gun, freezing the action.

Good luck, and always remember; the 1911 might me the toks more impressive older brother but he still can't punch through a Kevlar helmet like the tok can
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachomega View Post
I have a 1953 Romanian TTC that has a peculiarity to it when trying to rack the slide.

The slide gets stuck once the hammer gets to about half cock. If you really strong arm it, you can get it to complete its cycle. However, if you pull the hammer back first, the slide moves freely and is easily racked.

I believe this problem is related to a burr on the firing pin block, but would like somebody with far more experience to confirm this for me. Also, any suggestion on how to remove the burr myself (if that is the problem) would be very welcomed!
I have a 1941 Russian TT, it should be a fairly good pattern to compare.

First, it really doesn't have a "firing pin block" (did you mean firing pin stop?) in the 1911 sense. It has a transverse pin through the slide (see item #11, below) that arrests rearward firing pin movement. This means the part you may suspect is removable from the slide, isn't.

It does require more force about half-way through slide retraction, if I start out with the hammer down. I would also have a careful look at the hammer face for machine marks or other obvious causes of a stiff action (lack of lube,etc). To directly address your question, this area of the slide has a right angle profile, it isn't radiused or chamfered except for a very slight upward sweep on the bottom surface. Does this sound like what you have?

The real test is at the range. Can it cycle ammunition reliably? If so, it's probably okay. And also check your ammunition, there was some really hot SMG ammo that was being sold as regular pistol ammo, more than one CZ52 had an early death from this. See links at the end of this post.

BTW, never leave the hammer down on a chambered round. A proper length TT-33 firing pin more than enough protrusion past the firing pin bore to set off a round if dropped on the hammer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachomega View Post
One last non smithing question about the TTC. Does anybody know why the pistol is marked Romania by CAI but it has marking that are similar to the Ishevsk markings on my Mosin rifle? I know it is a Russian design. I know that the Romanians and the Russians were sort of WWII allies for a bit and then enemies when the Russians switched to the Allies. I know that the Russians had control of Romania following the end of WWII. Were these Russian guns originally? Were they guns that were started in Russia and completed in Romania? Are they completely Romanian? Any information really would be welcomed!
The "Romania by CAI" is an importer mark, made very recently to either comply or appease BAFTE. It was never originally on your pistol. Neither was the safety, as unmodified TTs do not have any external safety device. BTW, the Romanians weren't allies with the Soviets. Romania was being strongarmed by both the Germans and the Soviets early into W.W.II, and went with the Germans. They jumped ship in 1944 and sided with the allies in 1944, but by then the Soviets had overrun Romania.

What constitutes "Russian" v. non-Russian is blurred a bit. Here's a fairly good example: some SKS rifles were assembled from either Soviet parts or parts made on original Soviet machinery in China. These were the first batch that came over to the US in the mid-80s. They had the Russian blade bayonet, screw-in barrels and milled trigger guards. However, they had Chinese markings. When the Sino-Soviet friendship came to an end, the Chinese made some significant changes to the basic design. So, Chinese SKS rifles are fairly easy to distinguish from Soviet SKS rifles.

The Russians moved some of their machinery into their satellite countries in the immediate years following the end of W.W.II. They knew they'd be there a while*, and they wanted their new subordinates to have some self-manufacturing capability with regards to small arms. What's more, it would have been a good way to dump used manufacturing machinery they knew would be phased out soon anyway, it seems pointless to make more. Before the end of W.W.II the Russians were well aware the 7.62x39 was the cartridge of the future, and would replace the 7.62x25 in the SMG role.

When exactly the satellite nations transitioned over to machinery actually made in in the satellite nation (if at all) is a matter of conjecture at this point, but it's reasonably safe to assume none of the eastern European nations were in any condition following W.W.II to resume heavy industry before the 1950s. Also note that the Soviets were systematically looting Romania well into the 1950s, another reason suggesting Romanian heavy industry wouldn't be returning anytime soon. This is why I suspect most of European TT-33s were made on Soviet machinery relocated in eastern European countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachomega View Post
If anybody has any recommendation on the sights as well, I'd love to hear them.
The sights are pretty much limited to the original setup. I'm not aware of any aftermarket offerings, certainly nothing the end-user could install.

If you examine the front sight, it appears to have been machined from the same billet as the slide. The rear sight is in a transverse dovetail slot, and came in selective heights as I recall. The only way the TT could be fitted with another front sight would be to grind off the existing front sight post, drill a new hole and stake the replacement sight on the slide a-la 1911 style.

* As we "agreed" to in the 1945 Yalta Conference. But that's another story...

Diagrams

TT-33:


M1911, 1911A1:


At the risk of re-kindling the CZ52 v. TT-33 debate, here are the reports of 7.62x25 ammunition problems:
  • http://www.hk94.com/hk/topic/22332-warning-some-dangerous-762-x-25-ammunition-is-lurking-out-there/
  • http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-22071.html
  • http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/msg/d62d4ad3fb4c4cb6
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

Was the light strikes on the Bulgarian? I've heard to avoid that stuff. To be fair, I was also told to avoid Romy '82 dated stuff too and I haven't had a problem with that either.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

I've had it happen with Bulgarian and Romanian ammo. Really not a big deal. As I said, it all fires in the end and I don't consider the pistol to be CC worthy anyway due to the horrible safety or lack there of.

-Zach

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Originally Posted by Al-Mumit View Post
Was the light strikes on the Bulgarian? I've heard to avoid that stuff. To be fair, I was also told to avoid Romy '82 dated stuff too and I haven't had a problem with that either.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

PA Rifleman, thank you for the very detailed response. I will try and answer as best I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA Rifleman View Post
I have a 1941 Russian TT, it should be a fairly good pattern to compare.

First, it really doesn't have a "firing pin block" (did you mean firing pin stop?) in the 1911 sense. It has a transverse pin through the slide (see item #11, below) that arrests rearward firing pin movement. This means the part you may suspect is removable from the slide, isn't.
I mean firing pin block as in the piece of metal that holds the firing pin...the housing. The non removable part of the slide that holds it. And in particular the face that the hammer strikes against. As seen in the 2 pictures, there looks like a weird burr. I'm not sure if it is bad machining or if it is intentionally to slow down the inertia of the slide perhaps?


Quote:
It does require more force about half-way through slide retraction, if I start out with the hammer down. I would also have a careful look at the hammer face for machine marks or other obvious causes of a stiff action (lack of lube,etc). To directly address your question, this area of the slide has a right angle profile, it isn't radiused or chamfered except for a very slight upward sweep on the bottom surface. Does this sound like what you have?
yes, but with a burr on the face that the hammer strikes. Like a place for the hammer to catch on. If you notice, the TTC has a lip on the underside of the hammer which looks like it could catch on it. Maybe I should round this a little better and remove the burr? But as I said, maybe it is intentional?

Quote:
The real test is at the range. Can it cycle ammunition reliably? If so, it's probably okay. And also check your ammunition, there was some really hot SMG ammo that was being sold as regular pistol ammo, more than one CZ52 had an early death from this. See links at the end of this post.
It does cycle ammunition just fine. It is just cocking it initially that is a pain in the ass unless I cock the hammer before racking the slide.

I just want to stress, it isn't like pulling just a little harder lets the slide back, you REALLY have to fight with it. But as I said, if the hammer is already cocked, it slides back with ease.


Quote:
BTW, never leave the hammer down on a chambered round. A proper length TT-33 firing pin more than enough protrusion past the firing pin bore to set off a round if dropped on the hammer.
I am well aware of the lack of safeties on the TTC. I don't carry it. I don't leave it loaded. It is strictly a range toy.


Quote:
The "Romania by CAI" is an importer mark, made very recently to either comply or appease BAFTE. It was never originally on your pistol. Neither was the safety, as unmodified TTs do not have any external safety device. BTW, the Romanians weren't allies with the Soviets. Romania was being strongarmed by both the Germans and the Soviets early into W.W.II, and went with the Germans. They jumped ship in 1944 and sided with the allies in 1944, but by then the Soviets had overrun Romania.

What constitutes "Russian" v. non-Russian is blurred a bit. Here's a fairly good example: some SKS rifles were assembled from either Soviet parts or parts made on original Soviet machinery in China. These were the first batch that came over to the US in the mid-80s. They had the Russian blade bayonet, screw-in barrels and milled trigger guards. However, they had Chinese markings. When the Sino-Soviet friendship came to an end, the Chinese made some significant changes to the basic design. So, Chinese SKS rifles are fairly easy to distinguish from Soviet SKS rifles.

The Russians moved some of their machinery into their satellite countries in the immediate years following the end of W.W.II. They knew they'd be there a while*, and they wanted their new subordinates to have some self-manufacturing capability with regards to small arms. What's more, it would have been a good way to dump used manufacturing machinery they knew would be phased out soon anyway, it seems pointless to make more. Before the end of W.W.II the Russians were well aware the 7.62x39 was the cartridge of the future, and would replace the 7.62x25 in the SMG role.

When exactly the satellite nations transitioned over to machinery actually made in in the satellite nation (if at all) is a matter of conjecture at this point, but it's reasonably safe to assume none of the eastern European nations were in any condition following W.W.II to resume heavy industry before the 1950s. Also note that the Soviets were systematically looting Romania well into the 1950s, another reason suggesting Romanian heavy industry wouldn't be returning anytime soon. This is why I suspect most of European TT-33s were made on Soviet machinery relocated in eastern European countries.
Very cool insight! Thank you!

Quote:
The sights are pretty much limited to the original setup. I'm not aware of any aftermarket offerings, certainly nothing the end-user could install.

If you examine the front sight, it appears to have been machined from the same billet as the slide. The rear sight is in a transverse dovetail slot, and came in selective heights as I recall. The only way the TT could be fitted with another front sight would be to grind off the existing front sight post, drill a new hole and stake the replacement sight on the slide a-la 1911 style.
Yeah, I think I will make the best of it. As I said, it is just a range toy.

-Zach
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 06:12 AM
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Default Re: Romanian TTC/TT33 Tokarev Question

Update on the situation:

The lip on the hammer (see picture 5 - again open then in a new window and they will have a higher resolution which will make this easier to see) is catching on the burr highlighted in pictures 2 and 4. Pictures 1 and 3 are better resolution versions of pictures 2 and 4 and without the burr circled.

Would there be any harm in removing the burr? As I said, the pistol does function, but it looks like the lip is starting to get some wear where is meets the burr and the top of the hammer is also getting beaten up by the burr.

The hammer spring is not overly tight, in fact I'd like it to be a bit more firm to handle those stiff primers from surplus ammo.

Thank in advance!
-Zach
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TTCBurr2.jpg (187.5 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg TTCBurrcircle.JPG (87.1 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg TTCBurr.jpg (163.2 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg TTCBurr2circle.JPG (103.6 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg TTCHammerLip2circle.JPG (169.6 KB, 24 views)
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