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  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 21st, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Default Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

I recently wanted to look at a shotgun at Dicks in PA and the clerk asked me for ID. I produced my PA state license to carry picture ID and was denied. After asking to see a manager, they agreed to let me look but not buy with this ID.

The ATF form 4437 only requires a valid government issued ID and I believe that the state issued picture license to carry is a valid form of ID.

Any thoughts?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old November 21st, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwarshe View Post
I recently wanted to look at a shotgun at Dicks in PA and the clerk asked me for ID. I produced my PA state license to carry picture ID and was denied. After asking to see a manager, they agreed to let me look but not buy with this ID.

The ATF form 4437 only requires a valid government issued ID and I believe that the state issued picture license to carry is a valid form of ID.

Any thoughts?
my thoughts are: fuck Dick's Sporting Goods.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

my thoughts too. they don't want to deal with you don.t kiss their ass.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:04 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

your LTCF is a state issued photo i.d. and is just as good as a drivers license!
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwarshe View Post
The ATF form 4437 only requires a valid government issued ID and I believe that the state issued picture license to carry is a valid form of ID.

Any thoughts?
(IANAL, I could be wrong. Confirmation requested)


The PA LTCF is not a valid government issued ID.

Quote:
P.L. 109-13 prohibits Federal agencies from accepting State-issued driver's licenses or identification cards unless such documents are determined to meet minimum security requirements.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ013.109

Quote:
SEC. 202. <<NOTE: 49 USC 30301 note.>> MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND
ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.
(b) Minimum Document Requirements.--To meet the requirements of this
section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information
and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to
a person by the State:
(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card
number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent
tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for
fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined
minimum data elements.

(c) Minimum Issuance Standards.--
(1) In general.--To meet the requirements of this section, a
State shall require, at a minimum, presentation and verification
of the following information before issuing a driver's license
or identification card to a person:
(A) A photo identity document, except that a non-
photo identity document is acceptable if it includes
both the person's full legal name and date of birth.
(B) Documentation showing the person's date of
birth.
(C) Proof of the person's social security account
number or verification that the person is not eligible
for a social security account number.

(D) Documentation showing the person's name and
address of principal residence.


(d) Other Requirements.--To meet the requirements of this section, a
State shall adopt the following practices in the issuance of drivers'
licenses and identification cards:
(5) Confirm with the Social Security Administration a social
security account number presented by a person using the full
social security account number. In the event that a social
security account number is already registered to or associated
with another person to which any State has issued a driver's
license or identification card, the State shall resolve the
discrepancy and take appropriate action.
(11) In any case in which the State issues a driver's
license or identification card that does not satisfy the
requirements of this section, ensure that such license or
identification card--
(A) clearly states on its face that it may not be
accepted by any Federal agency for federal
identification or any other official purpose; and
(B) uses a unique design or color indicator to alert
Federal agency and other law enforcement personnel that
it may not be accepted for any such purpose.


Even our own state LCB does not accept it as valid ID.
Quote:
SECTION 4-495. Identification cards; licensees and state liquor store employes saved from prosecution

(a) The valid photo driver's license or identification card issued by the Department of Transportation or by any other state, a valid armed forces of the United States identification card, a valid passport or a travel visa issued by the United States or a foreign country that contains the holder's photograph shall, for the purpose of this act, be accepted as an identification card.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by kadar View Post
(IANAL, I could be wrong. Confirmation requested)


The PA LTCF is not a valid government issued ID.



http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ013.109





Even our own state LCB does not accept it as valid ID.
i disagree. the driver's ID is a state license, and the DMV is operated by the state; as such, i believe it is a government ID, albeit state government.

point is, you don't need a federal ID to buy a gun in PA. any shop i've ever been in only required that i have a PA driver's ID. most places won't even take a LTCF as a valid form, which is odd.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwarshe View Post
I recently wanted to look at a shotgun at Dicks in PA and the clerk asked me for ID. I produced my PA state license to carry picture ID and was denied. After asking to see a manager, they agreed to let me look but not buy with this ID.

The ATF form 4437 only requires a valid government issued ID and I believe that the state issued picture license to carry is a valid form of ID.

Any thoughts?
From the ATF's publication (Federal Firearms Reference Guide 2005):

Quote:
(D5) Is a Social Security card a
proper means of identification for
purchasing a firearm from an FFL?
No. A Social Security card, alien
registration card, or military identification
alone does not contain sufficient
information to identify a firearms purchaser.
However, a purchaser may
be identified by any combination of
government-issued documents which
together establish all of the required
information: Name, residence address,
date of birth, and photograph
of the holder
.
Quote:
27 CFR 478.11
Identification document. A document
containing the name, residence address,
date of birth, and photograph of
the holder and which was made or
issued by or under the authority of the
United States Government, a State, political
subdivision of a State
, a foreign
government, political subdivision of a
foreign government, an international
governmental or an international
quasi- governmental organization
which, when completed with information
concerning a particular individual,
is of a type intended or commonly
accepted for the purpose
Quote:
18 Pa CSA 6111 Sale or Transfer of Firearms
(b) Duty of Seller
(2) Inspected photoidentification of the potential purchaser or transferee, including, but not limited to, a driver's license, official Pennsylvania photoidentification card or official government photoidentification card. In the case of a potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sect or community, a seller shall accept a valid-without-photo driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's name, address, date of birth and the signature of the applicant.
IMO the LTCF should suffice by both Federal and state requirements. However and unfortunately, the vast majority of transactions involve the DL and, as such, it has become a de facto standard (requirement) - not by law but repeated business experience.

Certainly you could successfuly argue an LTCF is compliant in a legal proceeding and you could make a good case with a business but, because you are dealing with a private entity, they can set the policy of their choice even when its done from ignorance.

You could also seek a written clarification from the AG and ATF which, if obtained, would have more sway in getting a FFL's business policy changed.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

Not too long ago, in preparation on buying a handgun privately, I asked a dealer about the ID required for the transfer. He wanted a PA driver's license. I won't use a DL for such a transaction as a matter of principal, and offered to bring a PA LTCF. He objected; but when pressed why, his real reason was - he can use the DL numbers and directly punch them into to a computer operated automated telephone system, whereas if the LTCF is used he has to take the time to actually talk to a live operator.

My other experiences suggests that many who ask for ID do not have a full understanding of the actual regulations. Knowing for one's self the reg's, like tl _3237, is the best way to counter those who object. It's similar to OC/CC, there will be times when we may have to take a stand and then educate.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

I talked with the PSP PICS folks and they claim that a LTCF is a valid form of ID for PICS. However, the dealer or FFL can set their own standards with regards to the ID type and deny a sale. The officer even said that if an FFL does not like the way you look (sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen) they can deny a sale.

I do think the definition of what is a legal form of ID for PICS needs to be standardized at the state level and not by the retailer.

Thanks everyone for your input.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Type of ID required for PA gun purchase

My drivers license was expired and I bought two separate guns from two separate vendors using LTCF ID card with in the past year. Both called PICS or ATF or whoever it is they call and were cleared to use that as ID.
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