when to shoot in self-defense

**wewo** · September 20th, 2006, 08:39 AM

Short of researching PA law (which I can do if necessary but it will take a bit of time), where can I find a reference of when to draw and use a pistol in self-defense in PA. I believe under New York law you can only use deadly force in response to a threat of serious bodily injury to yourself or another, or in case of burglary. I assume PA is less strict. More practically, if someone says "I'm gonna kick your *** and runs toward you" what should you do, especially with the fear that someone can grab your gun if you do not use it!

**dmg1969** · September 20th, 2006, 08:50 AM

wewo, there are many factors which go into the equation. Disparity of force, escalation of force, etc. If you do not know when it is appropriate to use deadly force, I would recommend not carrying a deadly weapon until you do. Take the time to do the research rather than relying on a quick answer. You need to FULLY comprehend when it is appropriate and the consequences of doing so when it is not.

There is a good book to read if you can find it. I bought it years ago and it was very enlightening. It is called In the Gravest Extreme - The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob. It is not a substitute for reading up on PA laws, but is VERY informative!

Dave G.

**klpolk3** · September 20th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by wewo

More practically, if someone says "I'm gonna kick your *** and runs toward you" what should you do, especially with the fear that someone can grab your gun if you do not use it!

It's only my opinion, but I would say that that falls under the category of "threat of serious bodily injuy". And being that I'm a small woman, if I'm not in a position to flee, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot. If I'm wrong, at least I'm still alive, and I'll deal with the consequences later.

**wewo** · September 20th, 2006, 09:23 AM

@dmg, exactly why I am asking now, before I purchase and carry, If a reliable source has already done the research (such as the book you recommend) it is easier and more reliable than reasearching and reading statutes case law where there is the risk of missing important cases. In addition practical experience (such as KLpolk's) is also valuable and can not be researched in law. In short, this post is part of my research.

**danp** · September 20th, 2006, 10:04 AM

There's a little too much to summarize here, but the principles of justification can be found here: PA Code Title 18 Chapter 5 General Principles of Justification

**junyo** · September 20th, 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by wewo

More practically, if someone says "I'm gonna kick your *** and runs toward you" what should you do, especially with the fear that someone can grab your gun if you do not use it!

Stop kissing his wife and run.... Wait, that's just me.

There's no hard and fast rule. The Universal Common Sense Rule (UCSR) is that deadly force is an appropriate response to a reasonable fear for your life, person, or that of your loved ones. Gun owners have an unwarranted reputation for looking for excuses to go around shooting people. It's a dangerous way of thinking to be looking for less strict usage of your weapon. At the same time, if I do feal threatened, I'm going to do my best to stay alive, whether it's legal or not. In your scenerio, if it's a healthy looking adult male within 20 feet of me, I'm probably going to be concerned enough to think about drawing. But if it's just a verbal threat I'd probably look to put more distance and/or a barrier between us. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean that it's the answer to a given problem.

**klpolk3** · September 20th, 2006, 10:28 AM

Wewo, keep this is mind. They can write all the laws they want, some will be perfectly clear and undisputable. Others will be vague, and interpreted differently by different people, hence, the reason for prosecution and defense. Also, what one may see as a "life threatening" situation, may be viewed as a "minor altercation" to another. There's way too many scenarios and the laws cannot be clear and precise to every situation.
Plus, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they would do, until something bad actually happens to them. Let's just hope that they survive and are justified.

**wewo** · September 20th, 2006, 10:36 AM

thanks I will consider it all and definitely look at the info in Danp's link!

**aubie515** · September 20th, 2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by klpolk3

Wewo, keep this is mind. They can write all the laws they want, some will be perfectly clear and undisputable. Others will be vague, and interpreted differently by different people, hence, the reason for prosecution and defense. Also, what one may see as a "life threatening" situation, may be viewed as a "minor altercation" to another. There's way too many scenarios and the laws cannot be clear and precise to every situation.
Plus, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they would do, until something bad actually happens to them. Let's just hope that they survive and are justified.

I am going ot have to agree with klpolk3 on what she has written on this thread. Pulling a weapon is the last resort, but if you must do that...I would say you are/should shoot. There are always shades of grey when you refer to the law. I just know for myself that I would rather be alive and defending myself in court, versus being dead.

At the end of the day, we all make choices that some would agree with, while others would disagree. The bottom line is that it's your life and your family's life that could be in danger...how you handle the situation will vary under different circumstances. Just make sure that pulling your weapon out is the last resort.