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  #91 (permalink)  
Old June 3rd, 2008, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

I have read some mixed reviews about the function of this gun, however. I will try to find them and post them.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old June 3rd, 2008, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Liberty View Post
Are you serious? Have you ever used pepper spray? Pepper spray is ineffective on 10% of the population. The remaining 90% can easily fight through the pain of a little pepper spray, easily if they are stoned. Talk to a forensic pathologist regarding the likelihood of fatality by being shot in the face with 410 bird shot. You don't have to believe me, I speak from experience. Thanks.
Wow, you know of someone who took .410 to the face and died from it... must be a "1 shot stop" caliber, huh?

Since we're having story time....I have a friend who showed up on a scene where a guy took a .44 Magnum to the dome and lived...I guess going by your logic, the .410 birdshot is a better man-stopper than .44 Magnum.

You can kill someone with a ball-point pen, too....doesn't mean I'd pick it as a primary weapon. The Judge sucks against people, plain and simple. Is it better than nothing? Yes. Are there significantly better weapons systems for the situation Taurus pitches it for? Absolutely.
  #93 (permalink)  
Old June 3rd, 2008, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by synergy View Post
Wow, you know of someone who took .410 to the face and died from it... must be a "1 shot stop" caliber, huh?

Since we're having story time....I have a friend who showed up on a scene where a guy took a .44 Magnum to the dome and lived...I guess going by your logic, the .410 birdshot is a better man-stopper than .44 Magnum.

You can kill someone with a ball-point pen, too....doesn't mean I'd pick it as a primary weapon. The Judge sucks against people, plain and simple. Is it better than nothing? Yes. Are there significantly better weapons systems for the situation Taurus pitches it for? Absolutely.
Sarcasm is the poorly attempted defense of a minuscule intellect. Mr. Pepper Spray, there is no concealable one shot stop caliber, but I have never heard of anyone continuing to attack and win when they have been blinded. I won't respond to anymore of your posts. Thank you.
  #94 (permalink)  
Old June 3rd, 2008, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Liberty View Post
Sarcasm is the poorly attempted defense of a minuscule intellect. Mr. Pepper Spray, there is no concealable one shot stop caliber, but I have never heard of anyone continuing to attack and win when they have been blinded. I won't respond to anymore of your posts. Thank you.
So, your first few posts on this site are to argue the terminal ballistics of .410 birdshot.... to which you use anecdotal accounts to backup your claims. Awesome!

Perhaps you should re-read my original post which you took issue with.

Blinding someone doesn't cause their trigger finger to stop working. They don't need a precise shot to kill you, only a lucky one. I prefer guns that take the fight out of people, all together. Apparently, you don't.
  #95 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2008, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Hello everybody.

I've read this entire thread with much fascination.

People seem to be falling into three groups.

1. It's a great idea and I want one.
2. It's neat, but not really functional.
3. It's neither a great idea nor neat and it's a gimmick.


I'd have to say I'm going to need more information than what has been cited so far to really know whether I am 2 or 1; I know I'm not 3.

As a preliminary matter, I categorically do not accept any MV numbers provided by Taurus, unless they can cite specific tests that can be verified. The Taurus rep on the video saying that the shot had a MV of 1,500 fps. While this is possible given the boilerplate numbers of at least one 000 .410 round I've seen, I'd want to see it formally tested out.

I further am not impressed with the test run by the Box guy with the milk jugs full of water.

I was immediately skeptical of the Box guy because he went out of his way to point out that he thought the gun was ugly, and I believe that the Box guy had a bias about this gun from the second he heard the concept. (I admit that I have a bias myself about buying guns for their looks.)

As a further blemish on the Box guy's review, he seemed to indicate that he had trouble finding 000 buckshot .410s.

It took me exactly 1 Google search and 2 minutes to find this link . . .
AmmoNotSoHardToFind

Perhaps the Box guy is not familiar with the Internet. If so, he did a crackerjack job of posting his review and pics.

In any case, I found his claim of ammo scarcity to be disingenuous.

Finally, I am unimpressed with his testing methodology and extrapolations.

In any event, I'd like to see a side by side test of a 12g 000 buck shot from a shotgun with a known MV and a known penetration rating at the given range. At least then we'd be able to check the accuracy of his penetration ratings.

Bottom line is, the reviewer doesn't like the .45LC round, doesn't like the .410 round and dismisses it as a small game round, and, IMO, ran a biased test that was designed to show the result he wanted to show.


Getting on with it . . .

I think that the main potential benefit to this weapon as a self-defense weapon has been unduly minimized on this thread.

Many have written, "the spread is not significant at close range."

I must disagree.

When you fire a .45ACP or a 10mm or a .44, you have a line and only a line.

So look at it this way.

If the attacker is a standard male, he has an outline of maybe 3 square feet (1x3 target) of good target, and 2 square feet (1x2) of deadly target.

If you use a line weapon, like a .44, you have exactly 2 sf that you must hit with your line.

If you are using a weapon with a spread of, let's say, for easy math , 12" at a distance of 10 feet, then your target areas that you must hit with your line open up to 15sf of good target and 12sf of deadly target.

Put another way, the spread means that your target area is increased by a factor of 5 and 6, respectively.

If the spread is 1/2 foot at 10 feet, then you have 8sf and 6sf, which is 2.6 and 3 times greater area.

Put a final way, this means that you chances of scoring a hit with each shot are dramatically better with a spreading weapon.

Sure, a 000 ball of buckshot will not do anywhere near the damage of a .45 hollow tip. But it will do a lot more damage than a .45 that misses.


I think every man should arm himself with whatever makes him comfortable.

You like .22 mags? Do it.

38 SP? Great.

My opinion on it is simple.

I think most people underestimate the chaos that is going on in a shooting situation.

I'd guess that most shootouts involve little or no aiming.

Every time there's a cop shootout, it's always the same thing. Cops shoot 58 rounds from 30 feet with 3 hits.

The reason for that, is because it's not humanly possible to stand still and aim when another man is firing bullets at you, any one of which can take you out.

You put me in the street 20 feet from a guy with a revolver/pistol and I have a pistol grip shotgun at 18" I like my chances because I know the guy has never practiced shooting at a man running sideways at full speed who is spraying buckshot into him, and at 20 feet and a 1.5-2 foot spread I am hitting with almost every shot shooting from the chest. Once he's hit once, his aim is really going to get worse.

You throw in that, for a 3" .410 magnum with 5 000 shots, IF they are at 1200pfsMV are about equivalent to a 38, then you have the potential to hit a man with 5 38s at one time in a spread pattern of a few inches . . .

So my conclusion at this juncture is that the 4510TKR is a great concept weapon.

What I need to figure out whether I'd like to own one is . . .

The MV on .410, 3", magnum 000bs. If you know the MV, you can compare it to 12g, known MVs and see how it compares.

The spread cone angle, and, from that, the strike area at 5, 10, and 20 feet.


Bottom line, for me, and just me, as this is only my opinion, is that if you have a muzzle velocity of over 1000fps with 5 000 pellets with the equivalent power of a 38 round that spread into a cone of 1/2 foot diameter at 10 feet, then this is a very potent weapon that would be extremely useful in close-in and rapid situations, which I would expect most or all of them to be.
  #96 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2008, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Update:

I stumbled across this review:

GoodReview

Go directly to the bottom and you'll find a table with some interesting numbers.

The .410 000 shotshell gives poor results.

844 fps, 112ft-lbs muzzle energy per pellet, 5.5" penetration into gel 5" in front of gun. In short, weak.

Given that Winchester's basic .410 shell has a factory rating of 1300fps Link
it seem that the short barrel is causing a major loss of energy.

On the other hand, a .410 slug is shown as having a muzzle velocity of 1299 fps. 347energy.

The pellets are .46 ounces and the slug is .41 ounces.

EDIT -

A bit more research.

Federal only makes a single .410 slug. It has a rated MV of 1755 and ME of 762. That means that there is a drop off, for the slug, of 25% in MV and 54% in energy. The slug is made with, I assume, more powder to get he higher MV.

Can anyone confirm that? And, if that is true, would it be possible to swap out pellets for the slug?


The Winchester .410 000 MV is given as 1300fps. No energy data is given. If you figure a drop off of 25%, that would put you at 975 fps, and the measure amount of 844 is not far off.

I'm afraid, without refuting data from Taurus, it appears that the performance with any shot from buck to bird does not result in very good energy or penetration. 5.5" at point blank range is fairly weak, IMO.

By the way, the 3" .410 shells available have MV at or lower than the 2.5" shells, so you end up with 5 pellets instead of 3, but all going relatively slowly and with relatively poor penetration.

The slug's energy makes it equivalent to a 9mm or a .38SP.

I'm going to have to conclude that this weapon would not be a good choice for me for personal defense, unless Taurus has some data showing much higher muzzle velocities in the newer 3" cylinder models firing 3" shells with a 3" barrel.

I suppose I could take a look at the 6" barrel to see if any performance is gained there.

If anybody has any thoughts on swapping pellets for a slug, please share.
  #97 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2008, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashmere View Post
I think that the main potential benefit to this weapon as a self-defense weapon has been unduly minimized on this thread.

Many have written, "the spread is not significant at close range."

I must disagree.


When you fire a .45ACP or a 10mm or a .44, you have a line and only a line.

So look at it this way.

If the attacker is a standard male, he has an outline of maybe 3 square feet (1x3 target) of good target, and 2 square feet (1x2) of deadly target.

If you use a line weapon, like a .44, you have exactly 2 sf that you must hit with your line.

If you are using a weapon with a spread of, let's say, for easy math , 12" at a distance of 10 feet, then your target areas that you must hit with your line open up to 15sf of good target and 12sf of deadly target.

Put another way, the spread means that your target area is increased by a factor of 5 and 6, respectively.

If the spread is 1/2 foot at 10 feet, then you have 8sf and 6sf, which is 2.6 and 3 times greater area.

Put a final way, this means that you chances of scoring a hit with each shot are dramatically better with a spreading weapon.

...

I'd guess that most shootouts involve little or no aiming.


You throw in that, for a 3" .410 magnum with 5 000 shots, IF they are at 1200pfsMV are about equivalent to a 38, then you have the potential to hit a man with 5 38s at one time in a spread pattern of a few inches . . .

So my conclusion at this juncture is that the 4510TKR is a great concept weapon.
Your figures for the hit probability for the target apply to innocents downrange too.

If you take into account how accurately you MUST place your shot, in the given distance and spread numbers your quoting....think about how much more accurately you must fire to ensure your entire pattern hits the target, and thus won't hurt/maim/kill innocents downrange of the BG.

Also, the Judge doesn't chamber 3" shells.....nor is the ammo you linked readily available on gun-store shelves. I can buy anything on the internet...that doesn't make everything easy to get.
  #98 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2008, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Synergy wrote: "Your figures for the hit probability for the target apply to innocents downrange too."

Well Synergy, you are certainly the most anti-Judge poster, and, as you can see from my second post, I'm falling on the 'no' side of this.

But your logic is, in my opinion, flawed.

You are either going to fire with innocents in the background or you are not.

So what would be better - firing a spray of shots that are potentially lethal at 20 feet and almost certainly not lethal at 100 feet, or

.44 Magnum/9mmHP/38SP that is absolutely deadly at 100 feet?

In terms of "innocence" protection, the check mark clearly falls in the Judge's column.

As an added matter, if a bad guy was right on top of you - say 2 feet, and you blast him with the 4510 shot, the shot won't even leave his body.

Your .357 Mag round goes through him and the 4 unlucky people behind him.


Synergy Wrote: "Also, the Judge doesn't chamber 3" shells.....nor is the ammo you linked readily available on gun-store shelves."

Both incorrect and irrelevant.

The '08 Judge chambers 3" shells.

By the way, syn, the gun just won the American Rifleman handgun of the year award.

As for ammo on gun shelves, who cares?

I almost never buy ammo at gun stores - always find a better deal on line.

So I'm not sure what your point is. You can't get Mazerati parts at Auto-zone. Does that mean that your F150 is better than my Mazerati? Of course not.


Syn - "I can buy anything on the internet...that doesn't make everything easy to get."

I have no idea what this means. Is this an "end of the world" type thing?

Well, if you're only going to own 1 gun, I'd say don't get this one.

A 9 would probably be best if you want to be able to score ammo after TSHTF.
  #99 (permalink)  
Old June 10th, 2008, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashmere View Post
Synergy wrote: "Your figures for the hit probability for the target apply to innocents downrange too."

Well Synergy, you are certainly the most anti-Judge poster, and, as you can see from my second post, I'm falling on the 'no' side of this.

But your logic is, in my opinion, flawed.

You are either going to fire with innocents in the background or you are not.

So what would be better - firing a spray of shots that are potentially lethal at 20 feet and almost certainly not lethal at 100 feet, or

.44 Magnum/9mmHP/38SP that is absolutely deadly at 100 feet?

In terms of "innocence" protection, the check mark clearly falls in the Judge's column.

As an added matter, if a bad guy was right on top of you - say 2 feet, and you blast him with the 4510 shot, the shot won't even leave his body.

Your .357 Mag round goes through him and the 4 unlucky people behind him.


Synergy Wrote: "Also, the Judge doesn't chamber 3" shells.....nor is the ammo you linked readily available on gun-store shelves."

Both incorrect and irrelevant.

The '08 Judge chambers 3" shells.

By the way, syn, the gun just won the American Rifleman handgun of the year award.

As for ammo on gun shelves, who cares?

I almost never buy ammo at gun stores - always find a better deal on line.

So I'm not sure what your point is. You can't get Mazerati parts at Auto-zone. Does that mean that your F150 is better than my Mazerati? Of course not.


Syn - "I can buy anything on the internet...that doesn't make everything easy to get."

I have no idea what this means. Is this an "end of the world" type thing?

Well, if you're only going to own 1 gun, I'd say don't get this one.

A 9 would probably be best if you want to be able to score ammo after TSHTF.
I'd recommend reading up more on terminal ballistics before you pick much more of a fight, on this.

.357mag isn't going through 4 people. 9mm JHP's probably aren't either. What I do know is where exactly my projectiles are going when I choose to press the trigger....something you don't.

You're advocating point shooting on the street with a weapon which sprays. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how the prosecutor would hang you out to dry.

As far as "incorrect and irrelevent"....I disagree. Availability of ammo is a significant concern to most people, IMO. And incorrect? Sorry, Taurus listed a 3" chambered model 2 years ago....they still haven't produced it, AFAIK.

It doesn't exist...IF and WHEN it does, then you'll have a point.

Oh, it won American Rifleman Handgun of the year? Oh, geez....I guess since it won an award, it's no longer an overly large, heavy, 5 shot, slow to reload, spray'n'pray handgun which shoots some of the most terminally ineffective loads on the market. If an organization which receives money from every sale Taurus makes says it's a good gun....it simply must be true.
  #100 (permalink)  
Old June 11th, 2008, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Taurus' The Judge

I'm sure there are many that will find the Judge sexy and cool but, as for me, I'll stick with my 2" barrel Taurus 85 with 110 grain Federal Hydra Shock JHPs for up close and personal protection. Why use scatter shot in close quarters? Just my opinion.
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