Point & Shoot

[Shawn.L]

Originally Posted by dgg9

The fight will be what it will be. YOU will be what you will be. It would be great if you could find a way to guarantee to be frosty under fire for the first time, but no one has figured that out. Not LE trainers, not the military, no one.

IMO, training should prepare you for what bad result is most likely to happen, regardless of whether we like it or not.

we should train to be all freaked out ?

really?

I think we must just disagree on this.

its been a neat topic for discussion, but Im done now.

I am open minded to techniques, will try new/old whatever, I may even travel and take a class just so I can see and judge for myself. I have had one class that used PS, but that detail seems lost way back in this thread.

but training to be in the condition you describe?

that needs its own discussion if anything.

/out

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by Shawn.L

we should train to be all freaked out ?

That's your term, not mine. There is a fairly well documented set of physiological reactions to fight or flight stress. Some or all of these might happen to you. This is not really controversial.

But you will not know ahead of time how YOU will react. So what's advisable? To make the presumptive game plan that you will perform just as well under extreme stress as at the range? Or factor in some expected stress effects, and use that as the filter for selecting how to train?

[synergy]

Shawn keep in mind that dgg9 thinks you will be too amped up to diagnose whether or not a pistol is empty vs. jammed, in a gunfight.

I can't say I agree, but his approach towards things seems to be that you will mentally revert to a 5y/o in a gunfight. That's not a jab, dgg9, just what you've led me to believe from previous debate.

[Matthew Temkin]

Actually I remember Dgg9 quite well.
We met at Andy Stanford's class back in 2002 where I was invited as a guest observer.
Most of the teaching that I do is grattis for law enforcement officers.
Here is a review of such a class that was posted over on Lightfighter some years back.
It best describes what point shooting is and is not and was written by one of the Patterson N.J. SWAT guys who showed up:

The Calverton LI, NY After Action Report:

Date: Oct. 1, '05
Location: Calverton Pistol and Rifle Range, LI, NY
Time:1000 hrs
Weather: clear, sunny, 75F, breezy
Weapons: Glock 23(.40 cal), Rem. 870 pump action 14" barrel
Instructor: Matthew Temkin

Matt offered a pointshooting seminar in Calverton on Saturday for free. Looks like me and two of my guys from work were ther only ones able to make it out. I drove two hours from NJ to see what he was about. I think it's my duty to fill you guys in on what went down and to give Matt much due credit on his level of skill in pointshooting and his overall presentation.

I'll start by reminding everyone the seminar was free, I didn't pay Matt a dime, he didn't have an agenda. Matt brought two friends of his; one a retired agent from a three letter agency, the other a firearms instructor from a multi-juridictional Police Department.

Matt started the day with a 30 min. lecture on the history of pointshooting and its founders. He talked about the gunfighters of the West, WW II, the OSS, Shanghai and the FBI. He talked about the FBI style, Elbow up/elbow down, weapon retention and arms extended pointshooting. The man is very knowledgeable.

We go to the firing line where we had set up three targets at about 4-5 yds. Matt lets us know he's going to fire a couple of rounds then proceeds to machine gun his Glock 9mm from the hip into a target. He fires about four to the Q then three to the head, then five more to the Q. He runs dry, changes mags, then starts at the other target (about 6 yds away). Belly, head, belly, head, switch targets, belly, runs dry. "what do ya think? Pointshooting works?" he asks. I said to myself, "If that's a parlor trick, I want some of that."

He started us off easy then quickly got us moving at a faster pace. He said we were good students and picked up fast. I had never spent more than 10 mins. pointshooting, it was fun to get your mind away from proper shooting fundamentals and let your body do what comes naturally. After no more than 30 mins. we were all shooting with consistent acuracy. I had no more than a four inch spread on my rapid fire bursts, my freind had consistent two inch speads with many going in the same hole. I was jealous. We were shooting from the 5 yd line.

Matt spoke about combatives and echoed the words others have said of fighting and fighting with a handgun is and should be intergrated.

Interesting point; although I know Matt is an avid fan of pointshooting and teaches it zealously, I did hear him say on at least three occassion, "Look this is for in close fighting, where most gunfights are going to happen. If you're 15 or 20 yds away you need to be getting behind some cover and using your sights." Matt never says pointshooting is the only method one should use and belittle any style, school or train of thought. He is opinionated but will end all arguments by saying, look this works for me you can do whatever you want.

We moved over shotgun where we continued to use the techniques discussed for the pistol.

We shot alot that day. The things that most stuck out was: #1. The speed that one could/should be firing your gun. Matt would not be satisfied until it sounded like we were firing automatic weapons. #2. The aggression Matt wants his shooters to have when they fire on a target. We all got alot out of the day with Matt and are going to be looking to do some more training with him, pointshooting, combatives or both. I would recommend Matthew Temkin's training, I found him to know his stuff and be an engaging instructor. I'm going to take back the lessons learned from Matt and add the skills to my normal sighted fire training.

Matt: Great time.


TF out.

Posts: 66 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 15 February 200

[Matthew Temkin]

Here is another review from WarriorTalk about a class that I cotaught in August 2007 for the Akron OH PD:



Dave Williams Dave Williams is offline
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Euclid, OH, USA
Posts: 128
Default AAR - Training with Matt and 7677
Gents,

I had the chance earlier this month to train with Matthew Temkin and 7677 at their yearly summer training event.

First off, I (and my training partner) want to thank them and 7677's training partner JM for inviting me and my training partner to the event. I've been reading stuff from Matt and 7677 for years, and it's been great getting to know them a little bit and learn from them.

I've had nothing but sighted fire training until this year, when after alot of research, I decided it was time to get some point shooting training. One prominent instructor I've trained extensively with has you use your sights for 100% of the firing in class, and says if you have to shoot close in, just use the built in retention position of the draw. Problem is, you never actually do it in training.

I have to call BS on that, how can you be expected to do something in real life that you haven't trained to do? Answer: you can't!

Also, Steve Barron showed me a classic photo of this same instructor during an intense FoF event, and this same instructor is in a classic Fairbairn 3/4 hip position, under extreme stress in the scenario, firing. Hmmm. Barron said to me, with a grin on his face, already knowing the answer, "did you learn that position in your classes with him?" My answer, "Uh, no".

To quote Matt from one of his posts, we covered:

"point shooting both from a tactical officers point of view ( two hands in a hunter/active shooter mode) to extreme close range techniques. ( EU/ED, Zipper,retention, getting off the X, etc.)....some combatives and weapon retention....FOF a la airsoft" We also did some carbine pointshooting training.

We shot about 600rds each during the training day and covered a lot of material. There were some hardened, experienced Gunmen in this class, and not one of them came away unimpressed with this training.

Matt has a trememdous amount of knowledge and is a dynamic instructor, never failing to keep the attention of the class. He is the kind of guy that could easily misinterpreted on the street, just an average looking guy, but God help the crook that attacks this guy! My training partner and I were laughing on the way home at the sheer viciousness of Matt's demos. He is a real character and ball buster, and had us laughing our asses off at some points of the class. It was so damn hot that note taking was totally impractical, we had to focus on stuffing mags and drinking water when we weren't shooting, but I wish I'd had the chance to write down some of his one-liners. Matt is also a wheelgunner, which I like, as I carry two wheelguns everyday. The revolver is far from obsolete as a personal defense weapon!

7677 is a skilled operator and instructor, with tremendous knowledge, but much more low key than Matt. He did alot of the demos for the class, and let me tell you he is another guy you wouldn't want to tangle with at any range. He makes his duty G19 sound like a sub gun in some of the close range drills, with deadly accuracy.

Matt's buddy (who didn't want to be identified) and 7677's buddy JM were also assistant instructors for the class and did a great job of personal instruction. Thanks Guys! JM hosted this event and really worked hard and deserves a lot of credit for having the balls to teach these lifesaving skills to his men.

FoF saw some interesting things happen, I just wish that it had been videotaped, as I believe you can learn a great deal watching yourself on video.

These guys make a great training team. I would recommend anyone interested in no BS training contact these guys and bring them in for some training, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

I've now trained with three of the instructors who were personally trained by Col Rex Applegate: Steve Barron, Clyde Beasley, and now Matthew Temkin. I've been nothing but impressed by the training offered by these men.

Pointshooting is alive and well in Ohio.

Thanks again,

Dave Williams

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by synergy

I can't say I agree, but his approach towards things seems to be that you will mentally revert to a 5y/o in a gunfight. That's not a jab, dgg9, just what you've led me to believe from previous debate.

Well, no, you went to that conclusion on your own, with no leading, since I didn't say anything like that.

All I can do is suggest that people do a little research on the well documented stress effects during gunfights. There's a lot of material out there. You can be aware of it, or not.

[Roger Phillips]

Free PDF "Shooting To Live"

This is one of the all time best books ever written on gunfighting. It is a very inclusive book that also covers solid point shooting fundamentals. Fairbairn and Sykes documented 666 gunfights in a twelve year period and knew as much about gunfighting as any man who ever lived. I've read this book around thirty times and find something new in it every time. The depth of this material and knowledge would be hard pressed to find anywhere.

This may be "The Bible of Point Shooting" but it is also one of the best books on gunfighting ever written. There is some dated material and some things that may not be the best way to go (cutting off the trigger gaurd.) But as a pure book on the realities of the fight, it is hard to beat!

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf

Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist Instructor, Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

[Matthew Temkin]

Originally Posted by Roger Phillips

Free PDF "Shooting To Live"

This is one of the all time best books ever written on gunfighting. It is a very inclusive book that also covers solid point shooting fundamentals. Fairbairn and Sykes documented 666 gunfights in a twelve year period and knew as much about gunfighting as any man who ever lived. I've read this book around thirty times and find something new in it every time. The depth of this material and knowledge would be hard pressed to find anywhere.

This may be "The Bible of Point Shooting" but it is also one of the best books on gunfighting ever written. There is some dated material and some things that may not be the best way to go (cutting off the trigger gaurd.) But as a pure book on the realities of the fight, it is hard to beat!

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf

Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist Instructor, Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

And here is a link to Applegate's KILL OR GET KILLED, which has excellent chapters on the use of the pistol and long guns in combat.
http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Get-Kille...8206078&sr=1-1

[Matthew Temkin]

No, I am not doing this to sell classes, but to place some facts on the board to help clear up the confusion.
It is my experience that those who bash point shooting tend to have zero training in it and/or very little--if any--experience with real word violence.
Here is a review of a class that I did for Gabe Suarez ( who I am not longer affilated with) in which Roger Phillips helped out as an assistant:

Class: Interface Of Sighted Fire/Point Shooting
Instructor: Matt Temkin, Roger Phillips (assisting)
Location: Prescott, AZ
When: 10/27-10/28, 2007

This is "Chan2" checking in. This was my first formal instruction in point shooting. I have been shooting for a little over a year, but that's long enough to be caught in the crossfire (pun intended) in the "Point Shooting vs. Sighted Fire" holy war. I've read both sides, and after taking the class, it's easy to see that the whole "debate" really is assinine.

First of all, as the name of the class suggests, it is not an "either/or" proposition. The instructors, who are grouped in the point shooting camp, both clearly state that point shooting has its applications, and sighted fire has its application. During the course of a fight, you may have to flow from one to the other.

Next, if you've read ANYTHING that Matt or Roger has written, it is that Point Shooting is a concept, not a method. If you want to know how to do it, it's not some secret magic technique. Although Roger has succinctly described how to do it recently, Fairbairn and Applegate descibed it half a century ago in publications you can download for free.

This brings me to my next point. If Point Shooting is a concept, why does it take a two day class to teach this? Actually, it only took a couple of hours and about 200 rounds of ammo. The class is better described as Fast Effective Combat Shooting. The class teaches and conditions you to get your gun into action as quickly and effectively as possible to solve the problem at hand.

What Matt teaches is based on WWII techniques taught by Fairbairn and Applegate. The titles of some of the published sources he uses as references, "Shooting to Live" and "Kill or Get Killed" exactly describes the situations one is caught up in when this skillset is deployed. Matt also integrates his 17 years of firearms experiences as a police officer, trainer, and student into the curriculum, and encouraged us to take what we learn and run with it and make it grow.

Sighted fire has widespread appeal and point shooting is put down as voodoo science, I think because every aspect of sighted fire can be quantified and explained. Point shooting is more ambiguous, but I can tell you that within its envelope of effectiveness, point shooting is accurate, and more importantly, FAST. It really shines when the shooter is behind the reaction curve and have to deal with a bad guy who has intitated action. Funny, that sounds like what most private citizen shooting scenarios entail.

The class will dispel a lot of myths that are circulating around. "Point shooting is no good at distances further than arm's length." "You can't point shoot while you're moving." "Point shooting is spraying and praying."

Point shooting is a controversial subject in the shooting community, and having experienced it firsthand, I am ready to make my own controversial statement. Ready? Here it is:

Point shooting is not for pussies.

There, I said it. Now let me explain.

What does this mean? It's not that the "techniques" are only for HSLD secret squirrel He-Men. It's not that there's some secret, that once revealed, will be so shocking that your hair turns white and your heart will stop in three days. What it means is this: the key in owning this and doing your best using point shooting as taught in this class is pure aggression. If you take this trying to learn techniques, or taking each exercise as only a drill to sharpen skills, it will only take you so far. However, if you apply it by taking the fight to the enemy without thought you will achieve almost superhuman feats.

Okay, now I sound like I've joined the Point Shooting Cult. All I can say is that the targets don't lie. Matt was trying to clarify the statement that point shooting was "instinctive." As a twist to that, in light of what I said above, I would add that point shooting is primal. You can't think about. You can't be timid about it. Put on your warface and just do it.

Just to reiterate so there's no misunderstanding, point shooting is not a repacement for sighted fire. After class I was shooting at a red gong on the other hill. It was pretty far away (anyone know how far that one was?). You bet I was using my sights (and I hit that thing too! After quite a few misses, of course). Use your sights when you need to, and when you can. You hear this all the time, but after this class you will know what it means.

This was a cool class with really cool people. I would say it is as eye-opening as your first FoF class. If you have a chance to study with Matt, please consider it. He's a man who has done his homework, and will hold nothing back from you. I can't thank Matt enough for this great experience. Also hats off to Roger and Gabe.


It has always been my hope that interested parties explore the data for themselves and then make up their own minds on the validity of point shooting.

[Roger Phillips]

For the open minded out there that are interested I can be found at Warrior Talk. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of reveiws on me and my courses there. My schedule can be found at Fight Focused Concepts. My "Point Shooting Progressions" book and DVD can be found at One Source Tactical.

My apologies for not having the time to answer a million questions that I have answered a million times over. If you are interested in more free information do a search of my name at Warrior Talk. Look for threads that I have started and they will most likely be chapters of my PSP book or my upcoming book.

I am at the point in my career that I have zero need to convince anyone of anything. That work has already been but in. It is time to just teach those that desire the knowledge and the ability.

I spend my time moving things forward, not debating things that were proven years ago. Feel free to come over, I am well known for teaching a lot of stuff for free.

Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist Instructor, Owner of Fight Focused Concepts