"It's The Law" - More stupid people (yes it's another rant)

[Franky4Fingers]

Originally Posted by cigarmanpa

i'll never understand why people pay to be disarmed

Yeah, I've read all the personal opinions here (the forum) on why some people think its OK to be disarmed in gun stores etc.... and to me, its a double standard. None of it holds water. We all think others, even people who aren't around and understand guns should just accept us to walk armed through, Wal Mart, the grocery store, sidewalks, Sheetz, and Church....and we figure "up theirs", they should understand and respect us, we're not dangerous. And we have all these philosophies on how we all aren't dangerous.

Then all of the sudden, we go to a gun store that doesn't allow guns....and we all think its OK, and we understand because of asshats waving guns around......So, do I really need to say it?... Whats stopping the asshat from waving the gun around in Wal Mart, or on the sidewalk?

The only part of this that holds water is simply the law itself. Its THEIR right as the property owner to not allow guns if they so choose. Thats right, it is their right. And if you don't like it, leave. However, in the grander scheme of philosophy its about as right as a guy with a paper ass sitting on a lit match. Just because its a right doesn't make it right.

Everyone has their own idea on whats right. Some of these gun owners might be for the 2nd Amd, then all of the sudden they think, "well, I have alot of asshats in here,...no guns allowed" Its a slippery slope isn't it? And we all wonder why we have these anti people and laws. It's simply human nature. And aparently, we didn't learn the first time 234 years ago.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Franky4Fingers

Yeah, I've read all the personal opinions here (the forum) on why some people think its OK to be disarmed in gun stores etc.... and to me, its a double standard. None of it holds water. We all think others, even people who aren't around and understand guns should just accept us to walk armed through, Wal Mart, the grocery store, sidewalks, Sheetz, and Church....and we figure "up theirs", they should understand and respect us, we're not dangerous. And we have all these philosophies on how we all aren't dangerous.

Then all of the sudden, we go to a gun store that doesn't allow guns....and we all think its OK, and we understand because of asshats waving guns around......So, do I really need to say it?... Whats stopping the asshat from waving the gun around in Wal Mart, or on the sidewalk?

The only part of this that holds water is simply the law itself. Its THEIR right as the property owner to not allow guns if they so choose. Thats right, it is their right. And if you don't like it, leave. However, in the grander scheme of philosophy its about as right as a guy with a paper ass sitting on a lit match. Just because its a right doesn't make it right.

Everyone has their own idea on whats right. Some of these gun owners might be for the 2nd Amd, then all of the sudden they think, "well, I have alot of asshats in here,...no guns allowed" Its a slippery slope isn't it? And we all wonder why we have these anti people and laws. It's simply human nature. And aparently, we didn't learn the first time 234 years ago.

Your point seems conflicted to me. I see the results of the slippery slope, but not the way you are trying to imply. I see these rules the result of years of indifference to safety.

Here's my take on the problem:

I am one of those people who "understands" why some gun shops have gun policies. I, like you, do not however believe it is the correct way to address the actual problem.

I see these rules as nothing more than rules to compensate for other rules (safety rules) not being enforced by the makers of the new rules themselves.

I rarely see a gun shop employee handle a firearm in an acceptable manner. I rarely see a gun shop employee correct a customer in unsafe gun handling.
I have never seen a proper clearing station in a gun shop.
I have rarely have ever seen a clearing station at a gun show check point, where they are requiring people to unload loaded firearms. That's a disaster waiting to happen.
I rarely see gun shops that post instructions on how to go about handling firearms carried in from the street and the many times I have seen a customer gun be discovered to be loaded, usually it is after it has endured a significant amount of handlig including sweeping folks with it, it is aways treated as a "haha, whoops" by the employees.
Etc.
etc.
etc.

If gun shops would enforce safety rules, ALL OF THEM, including with their own employees. Install a clearing station and insist people keeps their paws off their personally carried firearms unless and until they have gotten clearance from the staff and been directed tot he safety station to unload/check. I'm quite confident that over time fewer folks would do the things that gun shops/gun shows use as an excuse to enact silly rules.

But, I doubt we'll ever find out.

[dc dalton]

Originally Posted by Franky4Fingers

Yeah, I've read all the personal opinions here (the forum) on why some people think its OK to be disarmed in gun stores etc.... and to me, its a double standard. None of it holds water. We all think others, even people who aren't around and understand guns should just accept us to walk armed through, Wal Mart, the grocery store, sidewalks, Sheetz, and Church....and we figure "up theirs", they should understand and respect us, we're not dangerous. And we have all these philosophies on how we all aren't dangerous.

Then all of the sudden, we go to a gun store that doesn't allow guns....and we all think its OK, and we understand because of asshats waving guns around......So, do I really need to say it?... Whats stopping the asshat from waving the gun around in Wal Mart, or on the sidewalk?

The only part of this that holds water is simply the law itself. Its THEIR right as the property owner to not allow guns if they so choose. Thats right, it is their right. And if you don't like it, leave. However, in the grander scheme of philosophy its about as right as a guy with a paper ass sitting on a lit match. Just because its a right doesn't make it right.

Everyone has their own idea on whats right. Some of these gun owners might be for the 2nd Amd, then all of the sudden they think, "well, I have alot of asshats in here,...no guns allowed" Its a slippery slope isn't it? And we all wonder why we have these anti people and laws. It's simply human nature. And aparently, we didn't learn the first time 234 years ago.

Plain and simple it is an insurance regulation. I have talked to Joel from Eagle Arms about this. They basically say if loaded weapons are allowed in the shows they refuse to insure them. It' not quite the same as a shop saying they don't want guns because they don't like guns. It's not the promoter it is the insurance (which they must have to run such an event).

While I don't like it I don't blame the promoters, besides that I like gun shows. Shops bore the hell out of me, I like the assortment and 'you never know what you will see' atmosphere of a show.

Personal choice if you ask me, while I would not go into a store here the owner has some 'gun phobia' I will respect what the promoter of a show has to go through to put these things on.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Your point seems conflicted to me. I see the results of the slippery slope, but not the way you are trying to imply. I see these rules the result of years of indifference to safety.
. . .

I agree with all of that, but it's just a microcosm of the society in which we live. It's unlawful and inherently bad to rob a liquor store with a gun. Rather than devote massive resources to catching and swiftly punishing people who do that, we've imposed a Draconian system of second and third and fourth-hand crimes. So it's illegal to travel from home with that gun on the way to the liquor store without an LTCF; it's illegal for a huge assortment of categories of people to own or buy any gun for any purpose; it's illegal to transfer guns between perfectly honest folks without going through the dubious safety net of an FFL and PICS; it's illegal to sell any guns to someone who has an impeccable reputation but who lives in the wrong ZIP code.

Almost all of the gun control laws are aimed at stopping behavior that hurts nobody, with the hope that it will have an indirect impact on actual crimes.

So don't blame the gun shops, they're just a part of the society.

[Franky4Fingers]

I just want to clear up.

I purposely wrote my post conflicted. So, if you took it that way, you were correct in doing so. The underlying point is... well, I'm not 100% sure on that myself, exactly.

Perhaps we all get an idea in our heads and try to force it on others? We all think we're all right? We are illogical beings? We need work as a society?

Although I see both sides of the fence, I lean more to the side to allow guns. If your going to say we are all law abiding, and its OK to carry in Wal Mart, then I say its OK to carry in a gun store, a gun show, a federal building...wherever. Its like saying "I'm only gay when Steve comes to town".... well then guess what?.... your gay. Or, "I'm not a hooker, I just let people pay me to have sex with them." Then your a hooker. It's just a different way of hashing something that ends up meaning what you thought it did to begin with. Or in this case, its OK to let us carry in Wal Mart, I'm a good person, never did anything wrong and I'm just exercising my rights, I'M NOT DANGEROUS. Then you walk into the gun shop/show, hey your dangerous. You can carry in civilian, non gun filled Wal Mart, but you can't carry in your own firearm environment. It's not a matter of law, its just what I see as a defiance of common sense or logic. Thats like saying your not allowed to holster carry at the shooting range. If any place you'd think you would be allowed to carry its with those that are like minded. Thats why its so hard for me to wrap my head around this. It seems to defy logic. I know I'm not alone on this, it seems the board is almost torn 50/50 on it.


Also, if the insurance won't let you carry in the story, say so. "For insurance purpose we can not allow loaded firearms in the store". Pass the buck, put the blame where its deserved to be.

[Helter]

Originally Posted by Franky4Fingers

I just want to clear up.

I purposely wrote my post conflicted. So, if you took it that way, you were correct in doing so. The underlying point is... well, I'm not 100% sure on that myself, exactly.

Perhaps we all get an idea in our heads and try to force it on others? We all think we're all right? We are illogical beings? We need work as a society?

Although I see both sides of the fence, I lean more to the side to allow guns. If your going to say we are all law abiding, and its OK to carry in Wal Mart, then I say its OK to carry in a gun store, a gun show, a federal building...wherever. Its like saying "I'm only gay when Steve comes to town".... well then guess what?.... your gay. Or, "I'm not a hooker, I just let people pay me to have sex with them." Then your a hooker. It's just a different way of hashing something that ends up meaning what you thought it did to begin with. Or in this case, its OK to let us carry in Wal Mart, I'm a good person, never did anything wrong and I'm just exercising my rights, I'M NOT DANGEROUS. Then you walk into the gun shop/show, hey your dangerous. You can carry in civilian, non gun filled Wal Mart, but you can't carry in your own firearm environment. It's not a matter of law, its just what I see as a defiance of common sense or logic. Thats like saying your not allowed to holster carry at the shooting range. If any place you'd think you would be allowed to carry its with those that are like minded. Thats why its so hard for me to wrap my head around this. It seems to defy logic. I know I'm not alone on this, it seems the board is almost torn 50/50 on it.


Also, if the insurance won't let you carry in the story, say so. "For insurance purpose we can not allow loaded firearms in the store". Pass the buck, put the blame where its deserved to be.

I agree with Pa Patriot. it's a rule to make up for people not following other rules. In a gun shop or show, I fully expect to have guns pointed at me. I don't like it, but I accept that it's going to happen, and I don't freak out about it because the guns aren't supposed to be loaded. Take away that "not supposed to be loaded" part, and you have me diving for the ground everytime someone picks up a handgun to look at it.
I like the all or nothing solutions in this area. Either I want no guns loaded, so I don't have to worry, or I want all guns loaded, so the people behind the counter have to police properly and the people holding them have to treat them properly.
honestly, either solution is ok with me. As long as there are no variables, I'm mostly ok with peoples ability to act like fully functional adults. Tell someone the gun is loaded, they'll mostly try to be safe with it. it's the "I thought it was unloaded" thing that worries me.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by Helter

I don't like it, but I accept that it's going to happen, and I don't freak out about it because the guns aren't supposed to be loaded. Take away that "not supposed to be loaded" part, and you have me diving for the ground everytime someone picks up a handgun to look at it.
I like the all or nothing solutions in this area. Either I want no guns loaded, so I don't have to worry, or I want all guns loaded, so the people behind the counter have to police properly and the people holding them have to treat them properly.
honestly, either solution is ok with me. As long as there are no variables

Are you familiar with Rule #1??

[fingers80002]

Originally Posted by Helter

I agree with Pa Patriot. it's a rule to make up for people not following other rules. In a gun shop or show, I fully expect to have guns pointed at me. I don't like it, but I accept that it's going to happen, and I don't freak out about it because the guns aren't supposed to be loaded. Take away that "not supposed to be loaded" part, and you have me diving for the ground everytime someone picks up a handgun to look at it.
I like the all or nothing solutions in this area. Either I want no guns loaded, so I don't have to worry, or I want all guns loaded, so the people behind the counter have to police properly and the people holding them have to treat them properly.
honestly, either solution is ok with me. As long as there are no variables, I'm mostly ok with peoples ability to act like fully functional adults. Tell someone the gun is loaded, they'll mostly try to be safe with it. it's the "I thought it was unloaded" thing that worries me.

Rule #1 treat any gun as if was loaded.........

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by Helter

I agree with Pa Patriot. it's a rule to make up for people not following other rules. In a gun shop or show, I fully expect to have guns pointed at me. I don't like it, but I accept that it's going to happen, and I don't freak out about it because the guns aren't supposed to be loaded. Take away that "not supposed to be loaded" part, and you have me diving for the ground everytime someone picks up a handgun to look at it.
I like the all or nothing solutions in this area. Either I want no guns loaded, so I don't have to worry, or I want all guns loaded, so the people behind the counter have to police properly and the people holding them have to treat them properly.
honestly, either solution is ok with me. As long as there are no variables, I'm mostly ok with peoples ability to act like fully functional adults. Tell someone the gun is loaded, they'll mostly try to be safe with it. it's the "I thought it was unloaded" thing that worries me.

This posts is a perfect example of the problem.

Gun shops can not be exempt from rule #1, just because they enforce a "unloaded" policy.

The whole reason we have the fundamental rules of gun safety is because there is no such thing as all guns unloaded and people acting responsibly. That always fails at some point.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

I agree with all of that, but it's just a microcosm of the society in which we live. It's unlawful and inherently bad to rob a liquor store with a gun. Rather than devote massive resources to catching and swiftly punishing people who do that, we've imposed a Draconian system of second and third and fourth-hand crimes. So it's illegal to travel from home with that gun on the way to the liquor store without an LTCF; it's illegal for a huge assortment of categories of people to own or buy any gun for any purpose; it's illegal to transfer guns between perfectly honest folks without going through the dubious safety net of an FFL and PICS; it's illegal to sell any guns to someone who has an impeccable reputation but who lives in the wrong ZIP code.

Almost all of the gun control laws are aimed at stopping behavior that hurts nobody, with the hope that it will have an indirect impact on actual crimes.

So don't blame the gun shops, they're just a part of the society.

In so far as laws are concerned, I agree with you entirely. In regards to gun safety and gun shops/shows creating policies to make up for not following the rules, I disagree. Gun shop owners that enact such useless policies are solely to blame for not having clearing stations and not insisting/enforcing the 4 rules.