Columbia University Libertarians would like to put on a Machine gun Shoot/BBQ

[mojo]

Originally Posted by adymond

I really get the idea that you want to ensure this is not about grandpappy's hunting rifle going for the NFA items, but I think just making this an AR/AK shoot would accomplish the same thing and would open your options greatly as to where you can go. I know only a few ranges allow NFA items.

+1 ... the media thinks that most AR/AK are Full Auto anyways. I think it would be easier to get SBR/SBS than MGs.

You have to remember that MGs are valued at $3,000+ with most being $10,000+.

[Conglomeration Al]

This sounds like a great idea!! It will be very hard to accomplish, but the basis for this event is outstanding.

I never thought it would be coming from a student of Columbia, to say the least. I hope this pans out and if it's not too far from me I will definitely be there to support it! Even though I don't have any autos.

[Ajax22]

Originally Posted by mojo

+1 ... the media thinks that most AR/AK are Full Auto anyways. I think it would be easier to get SBR/SBS than MGs.

You have to remember that MGs are valued at $3,000+ with most being $10,000+.

I completely understand that, and I realize it adds a whole extra level of complexity to the project, but it ensures that there is a resonant sound byte for the anti's to grab and run with.

Even if there was only ONE machine gun at the event and most of the instruction etc was done on ar's/ak's etc it adds so much to the draw/publicity It would be very worth it.

Post sample guns made by an 07/02 only run $25-100 more than semi autos... so hopefully we could get them provided without having to ask to borrow 10k+ items.

(and an 02/07 can cross state lines without BATFE transport paperwork IIRC, which opens up more possibilities)

[Holden23]

Wait. You want someone to provide machine guns for you to shoot, and you want sponsors to pay for your ammo? And in return they'll get bad PR, full civil and legal liability if anything goes wrong, and they also get to train people with little to no firearms experience how not to kill anyone or damage their expensive machine guns? Heck, sign me up!

While I applaud your efforts to get people involved in shooting, I'm not sure this is the right approach. For one, there's too much that can go wrong. And I think the cost/benefit is waaaay too skewed in your favor. The only tangible benefit for your benefactors is PR - a lot of which will be negative. If you can find an 02/07 who welcomes that kind of scrutiny, then more power to you.

And then there's this:

Originally Posted by Ajax22

It is very likely that this will attract a huge amount of backlash from both the university and politicians (Bloomberg et all) but that just means national media attention and more to offer sponsors.

That sounds an awful lot like a publicity stunt, not an RKBA awareness effort.

If you really want to get people involved in shooting, then why not just get them involved in shooting instead of trying to find the best way to get national media attention with machine guns? Considering the current administration and Congress, I don't see how this could help anyone. Most folks don't even know machine guns are legal to own. For the next few years at least I think it might be good to keep it that way.

It sounds like you're primarily interested in generating attention, but the attention you generate - regardless of how good your intentions may be - have a tremendous potential to do lots of harm, especially to the NFA community you're asking to help you.

My $.02

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by Swarner793

A commercial range with rentals may be the only way to get a bunch of folks trigger time on registered items. I have never been to, so I can not vouch for, Sunset Hill Shooting Range in the Poconos http://sunsethill.slvrcreek.com/home.htm . I does meet several of the requirements like location and available firearms. This does not address your BBQ/Picnic ideas, unless they have an area to have such a function. Someone on here would know better than I, or contact them.

As mentioned by the others, a regular shoot would be as fun. Granted, it does not have the same "shock" value on the antis as full-auto firearms would, but still a bunch of fun. Besides, the antis do not really know the difference between the two anyhow, just ask one

Be safe (and DON'T do it in the parking lot!).

Scott

IIRC from my honeymoon, that range works with Ceasar's Pocono's Resorts and has resort groups once or twice a week from 3 resorts. So they are used to having groups of inexperienced people handle their weapons, and dealing with the safety, insurance, education, and other issues. They are definately worth a call. We didn't find out until our last day at Cove Haven, and there were no more trips that week, so I didn't get to go.

And don't let the naysayers get you down. You go right on ahead and ruin it for everyone

PS: It wold be great if your group could meet some OCers while in PA, and see that carrying guns is perfectly normal.

[Ajax22]

Originally Posted by Holden23

Wait. You want someone to provide machine guns for you to shoot, and you want sponsors to pay for your ammo? And in return they'll get bad PR, full civil and legal liability if anything goes wrong, and they also get to train people with little to no firearms experience how not to kill anyone or damage their expensive machine guns? Heck, sign me up!

While I applaud your efforts to get people involved in shooting, I'm not sure this is the right approach. For one, there's too much that can go wrong. And I think the cost/benefit is waaaay too skewed in your favor. The only tangible benefit for your benefactors is PR - a lot of which will be negative. If you can find an 02/07 who welcomes that kind of scrutiny, then more power to you.

And then there's this:

That sounds an awful lot like a publicity stunt, not an RKBA awareness effort.

If you really want to get people involved in shooting, then why not just get them involved in shooting instead of trying to find the best way to get national media attention with machine guns? Considering the current administration and Congress, I don't see how this could help anyone. Most folks don't even know machine guns are legal to own. For the next few years at least I think it might be good to keep it that way.

It sounds like you're primarily interested in generating attention, but the attention you generate - regardless of how good your intentions may be - have a tremendous potential to do lots of harm, especially to the NFA community you're asking to help you.

My $.02

To answer your first question; Yes, I am looking for both the use of the firearms themselves and sponsorship for the event to cover the material costs involved. This has a much higher potential for success if funding comes from outside of the university/city/state/federal grant system. and yes, a possibility always exists that a tragedy could occur and negative publicity could result... however that possibility is extremely remote, and can be reduced even further with proper supervision and event structuring.

Among 2A supporters (the customer/membership base of the people who we would be soliciting for sponsorship) being controversial tends to go over very very well. Whenever NYC goes poking around outside of their jurisdiction it generates tremendous positive publicity for the companies who they are hassling. If it wasn't for Bloomberg hassling Lauer they would not have anywhere NEAR the market share they have at the moment. They thrive on the attention... so even negative publicity, so long as it is coming from people outside the customer base of the sponsors is a good thing.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008...bloomberg.html

As far as teaching untrained/inexperienced people how to use full auto firearms, it requires structure, supervision, and manpower, but it is completely do-able... many ranges who have full auto rentals do this type of training dozens of times a day.

Right now the 2A is a dead issue in NYC, we've lost. Its not open for discussion... Particularly on liberal college campuses. There are few gun owners, and very very few of them will admit to it for fear of persecution/ostracism.

By structuring this event the way we want to, we can not only get the dialogue opened, we can ensure that the issues addressed are the ones we want addressed....

Yes, one function of this is a publicity stunt. one of the big problems our side has is they have a huge deficiency in using the media to advance our cause. a RKBA awareness event NEEDS to be a 'publicity stunt' if it is to be effective.

There is a time and a place for individual level instruction, easing people into the sporting aspects of the second amendment etc, but if we spend all of our time and energy fighting the fight that way we WILL loose.

Hiding in the shadows and hoping that no one will glance in their direction has worked GREAT for the NFA community so far.... that kind of 'I got mine' so we all need to lay low mentality is what led to the 86 FOPA in the first place... Sure would've been great if someone had made a 'publicity stunt' back then before it was too late to let people know there was even a fight going on.

If most folks don't know its legal to own machine guns then we are LOOSING the fight, it means we have stayed silent too long and have not taken sufficient steps to inform them.

If they don't know this aspect of the fight even exists, how can we expect them to join in? as the oppositions ranks grows and our membership dwindles how can we expect to do any more than struggle to hang onto rights which are going to be inevitably torn away by the tyranny of the majority.

there are 300 million firearms in private ownership in the USA... there are something like 80-100 million firearms owners.. we've been told for a very long time that the way to win is to quietly lay low and avoid the subject... but in reality all that has done is contribute to the destruction and ostracism of 'gun culture' in the US.

People don't know its legal to own a machine gun.... that in itself seems like a darn good reason to make a little noise. Our ranks would grow overnight.

We've tried the quiet, low key, zero media exposure, zero controversy route... that didn't work.... I suggest we try something else.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by Ajax22

I completely understand that, and I realize it adds a whole extra level of complexity to the project, but it ensures that there is a resonant sound byte for the anti's to grab and run with.

Even if there was only ONE machine gun at the event and most of the instruction etc was done on ar's/ak's etc it adds so much to the draw/publicity It would be very worth it.

Originally Posted by Holden23

That sounds an awful lot like a publicity stunt, not an RKBA awareness effort.

Yup. Based on ajax's last post I tend to agree.

I was initially liking the idea, but it's becoming more and more obvious to me that the objective is less about introducing individuals who've never used weapons on their use and their rights, and more about a media stunt. One that is sure to draw negative attention not to the attendees, but to the host of the event, i.e. the range/club and their officers or owners, and to the RKBA community in general. IMHO, this idea is guaranteed to perpetuate the "gun nut" stereotype to your intended audience.

Good luck finding a range or club to host an event where you place automatic weapons in the hands of participants that have never even seen a gun close up much less handled one, and do so in front of the media. You can show up with the fattest insurance policy you can find, and I doubt anyone will want to take on the risk associated with engaging in such activity. If nothing else, the media attention could cause your hosts more trouble then it's worth for them. More power to you if it works out for you.

IMHO, if you REALLY want to educate people on their rights, and how to handle and use a firearm, you'd start slow. Use semiautomatic, lever, and bolt action rifles, or pistols and revolvers if you'd rather use handguns. Hire an NRA-approved instructor to give your attendees lessons on safe firearms handling, the "anatomy" of a firearm, how to hold it, load/reload it, and fire it. If you think it's a good idea to take Johnny-Blue-Blood from Columbia U and put a M16 in his hands, there's a few things about common sense that your fine institution isn't teaching you. Then again, as has been said, this doesn't seem to be about teaching people about firearms as much as a media stunt.

Originally Posted by Ajax22

so even negative publicity, so long as it is coming from people outside the customer base of the sponsors is a good thing.

I have a feeling you'll find many that disagree with this view.

Originally Posted by Ajax22

By structuring this event the way we want to, we can not only get the dialogue opened, we can ensure that the issues addressed are the ones we want addressed....

Yes, one function of this is a publicity stunt. one of the big problems our side has is they have a huge deficiency in using the media to advance our cause. a RKBA awareness event NEEDS to be a 'publicity stunt' if it is to be effective.

One thing I've observed is that most of the media is rabidly anti-gun. Any publicity stunt you attempt won't strengthen your cause, it will be used against you as an expose to show "normal people" how "crazy" the "gun nuts" really are. It's very likely they will NOT report objectively, and to make the assumption they will is dangerous to your goals at best.

Originally Posted by Ajax22

If most folks don't know its legal to own machine guns then we are LOOSING the fight, it means we have stayed silent too long and have not taken sufficient steps to inform them.

If you were really concerned about this, then the people shooting the machine guns (for the purposes of the media) would be their owners. Putting said machine guns in the hands of inexperienced shooters in front of the media doesn't bring home any point about machine gun ownership, because those shooting them don't own them.

Originally Posted by Ajax22

there are 300 million firearms in private ownership in the USA... there are something like 80-100 million firearms owners.. we've been told for a very long time that the way to win is to quietly lay low and avoid the subject... but in reality all that has done is contribute to the destruction and ostracism of 'gun culture' in the US.

People don't know its legal to own a machine gun.... that in itself seems like a darn good reason to make a little noise. Our ranks would grow overnight.

According to the US Census Bureau:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=...=us+population

The current population is around 300 million. And according to your numbers, with 300 million guns in the US, and 100 million gun owners, that's 33% of the US population that's armed, and 1 gun for every American. While I'd like to see that be higher, with 1 in 3 Americans owning at least 1 gun, I wouldn't exactly say there's an issue with the basic message that it's legal to own a gun in the US. As for machine gun ownership, I'll concede that most people don't know it's legal to own them. But as I stated above, I'm still not sure how putting rented or borrowed machine guns in the hands of those who don't own them will strengthen your argument to those you wish to convince.

Originally Posted by Ajax22

We've tried the quiet, low key, zero media exposure, zero controversy route... that didn't work.... I suggest we try something else.

That didn't work, so now let's go out of state to give Bloomberg more talking points for why he should attempt to influence PA politicians and get involved in PA gun politics. You want to come and visit with your friends, and have a fun day at the range learning about and shooting firearms? Sounds good. But to expect those that haven't lost their rights yet to put those rights on the line for a nooB full-auto media stunt is a bit presumptuous.

[rodder]

I like this idea, and don't really agree with those who think it will bring nothing but more negative publicity to our cause.

My suggestion? Take all your peeps to one of the organized machine gun shoots like knob creek. I believe there's one in CT that may be closer.

[Holden23]

Originally Posted by Ajax22

This has a much higher potential for success if funding comes from outside of the university/city/state/federal grant system. and yes, a possibility always exists that a tragedy could occur and negative publicity could result... however that possibility is extremely remote, and can be reduced even further with proper supervision and event structuring.

What is "success"? Getting in the news? Let's try some headlines:

• NYC Students Go to PA for Machine Gun Shoot (Bloomberg would be thrilled btw)
• College Kids Get Machine Guns, Free Ammo in PA
• Teabaggers Organize Machine Gun Shoot in PA
• Columbia Student Injured in Machine Gun Publicity Stunt

Originally Posted by Ajax22

Yes, one function of this is a publicity stunt. one of the big problems our side has is they have a huge deficiency in using the media to advance our cause. a RKBA awareness event NEEDS to be a 'publicity stunt' if it is to be effective.

Let's recall some other recent publicity stunts involving firearms:

• Man Brings Rifle To Obama Protest
• Man Openly Carrying Gun At Teabagger Rally

In each of these situations, the public reacted with surprise that the individuals weren't breaking the law. And yes, there were calls for new laws to make what they were doing illegal. The media portrayed them as gun nuts and wackos, and suggested that being able to openly carry guns makes everyone less safe. I can only imagine the field day they would have with a machine gun publicity stunt.

Originally Posted by Ajax22

Hiding in the shadows and hoping that no one will glance in their direction has worked GREAT for the NFA community so far.... that kind of 'I got mine' so we all need to lay low mentality is what led to the 86 FOPA in the first place... Sure would've been great if someone had made a 'publicity stunt' back then before it was too late to let people know there was even a fight going on.

No, we don't need to hide in the shadows - but we need to choose a time that will work in our favor. Do you really think this Congress and this president would do anything to make machine guns more accessible? Just this year, Eric Holder said he wanted to reinstate the Assault Weapons Ban. Do you really want to kick that hornet's nest? I don't see how you could possibly think any good would come out of a machine gun publicity stunt in this political climate.

There's a saying "think globally, act locally" - take on fights you can actually win first. It doesn't seem like you're trying to win anything. It looks like you're just trying to get some publicity. If you have a game plan, what is it? Let's pretend you found someone willing to let you use their machine guns. And it gets national media attention. What do you think the headlines say? And what do you do next?

Originally Posted by Ajax22

People don't know its legal to own a machine gun.... that in itself seems like a darn good reason to make a little noise. Our ranks would grow overnight.

Non-gun owners aren't all that interested in owning a machine gun. Otherwise they'd probably own a gun. There are plenty of gun owners in this country, so a better course of action would be to get them aware and interested in legal machine gun ownership. There are enough gun owners that changes could happen somewhere down the road. But a publicity stunt targeting the general population can only end badly.

Your very first post on this site was to ask people to give you machine guns and free ammo for a publicity stunt. Can you not see how that might be poorly received?

[Yellowfin]

FYI, he's a regular on Calguns so he's an established one of us. I told him here would be the place to find support for something to help out since PA is the closest feasible place to have a range event of any kind. If for no other reason than people can shoot pistols which they can't do in NY (any part of it, much less the craphole with skyscrapers that New Jersey won't claim) because of the stupid Sullivan Law. Hey, now that I mention it, pistols are on the naughty list for NYC, so the shoot could easily feature a lof them. Pistols plus AR's and AK's some of them being SBR's plus some suppressors might be the easiest way to go. Ask AAC and/or YHM if they'd help out with that. AAC is always looking for publicity.