Legal question: Pistol records

[T Durdin]

Legal question:

Does a FFL doing a transfer among private parties have to give the person selling a pistol {transferor} any type of records of the sale?

If so how long must one maintain such a record?



Mods: wasn't sure where to go with this one

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by T Durdin

Legal question:

Does a FFL doing a transfer among private parties have to give the person selling a pistol {transferor} any type of records of the sale?

If so how long must one maintain such a record?

As seller, I've always gotten a part of the form. I think that's the norm.

I am unaware of any legal requirements for you to keep that piece of paper, although I always do for CYA purposes.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or LEO.

[Xringshooter]

The FFL does not HAVE to give the transferor (seller) any documentation. The FFL has become the "seller" as soon as he enters the firearm into his bound book. The buyer gets a copy of the PSP Application/Record of Sale form, a copy goes to the PSP Firearms Unit, and a copy is retained, along with the ATF Form 4473 by the FFL.

Personally, I will ask the original seller if they would like me to give them paperwork showing that they transferred the firearm to me (who, what, where, when, etc.) so that they will have something to show how they disposed of the firearm if they need it in the future (for whatever reason). I stress that this should be done and most people I have dealt with do get the paperwork. I have had several not want anything (I knew them personally and trust them implicitly). If anything were to happen down the road I have their name and address in my bound book.

Even in a face to face deal for a long arm, no paperwork HAS to change hands. I always suggest the buyer complete a bill of sale (The one on this forum is good to use) so that if anything happens later on they can show who they sold it to.

I would keep whatever you are given forever. Put it in the safety deposit box or whatever you use to store you valuable documents. Firearms can last a long time. You don't know how many times that firearm may be sold or to whom. 20 years down the road it may be used in a crime and if you are the last person it is traced to you can then produce the document showing what you did with it. Let your next of kin/personal lawyer know that you have a bill of sale/transfer for any firearms you have sold/transfered...just in case. I keep a photocopy of my bound book pages in a fireproof safe so that I can reconstruct them in case the working copy gets destroyed.

Hope this helps.

[phillyd2]

I don't and never understood this.

If I sold a rifle FTF legally without any paperwork for either party or sold a pistol though a legal FFL and then the seller went out and shot up a church full of nuns and orphans I as the seller would have absolutely zero liability, right? If so, then what is the CYA or "for whatever reason" some talk about?

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by phillyd2

I don't and never understood this.

If I sold a rifle FTF legally without any paperwork for either party or sold a pistol though a legal FFL and then the seller went out and shot up a church full of nuns and orphans I as the seller would have absolutely zero liability, right? If so, then what is the CYA or "for whatever reason" some talk about?

If you sell through FFL, the paper trail stops at them, not you.

If you sell FTF, it's more "the gun you sold was used in a crime and they recovered the gun, and the police are calling YOU about the crime scenario."

[phillyd2]

Originally Posted by dgg9

If you sell FTF, it's more "the gun you sold was used in a crime and they recovered the gun, and the police are calling YOU about the crime scenario."

And then I say that I sold the rifle legally. Case closed. No? If they ask who I sold it to I can also legally say that I don't know / remember. No?

Not trying to cause trouble but I have heard this before and have yet to hear how any can be even remotely held liable or at any risk at all for legally selling a rifle with no paperwork.

I don't mind being proved wrong but so far I see no jeopardy for the seller.

[Xringshooter]

If you happen to sell it to a "prohibited person", a person who is not allowed to own/have possession of a firearm, I am sure a lawyer will try to say that you are liable because you did not insure that the person buying was allowed to own/possess. That being said your defense is that PA law does not require you to do any kind of check on a face to face sale of a long arm. How this defense would stand up in a lawsuit would depend on how good your lawyer is. I agree, there should not be any jeopardy in the sale. But, the way people sue nowadays, you will have to spend money to defend yourself. Again, a big but, but even with a bill of sale that my not stop a lawsuit. The only way, from my view would be to do the transfer through an FFL and if the PICS comes back unapproved you only lost the sale to that person. If the PICS comes back approved I would think that you're off the hook for anything that happens in the future.

In a criminal case, if the firearm is used in a crime and they trace it to you and you say "well I sold it to some guy, I don't have any info on him and I don't remember his name", the police may then ask you to prove that it wasn't you that committed the crime. I just think it is easier to do a bill of sale. Now you may say that the buyer might give you a false ID, address, phone, etc. So be it, you still have the paperwork showing that you sold it to someone in good faith and that should help clear you of the crime.

All of the above being said it would probably be best to discuss this with a lawyer well versed in firearms law as we on the forum (with several exceptions) ARE NOT lawyers. We are only giving our opinions. And remember, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one and some are bigger than others.

[netw0rkpenguin]

I never understood this. I have bought a rifle FTF and offered the seller to copy down my info or to do the sale through FFL and he just shrugged and said he didn't need it. He asked me to show him that I had a PA ID and to tell him that I wasn't prohibited from owning a firearm yada yada yada. Personally if it was me selling a rifle I'd want a bill of sale completed just to have some kind of prove that I sold it.


As far as liability goes, I am not really sure but even the bill of sale is probably next to worthless without a witness or a notary stamp or something along those lines. Anyone can fabricate one. All it does is simplify personal record keeping.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by phillyd2

And then I say that I sold the rifle legally. Case closed. No? If they ask who I sold it to I can also legally say that I don't know / remember. No?

Not trying to cause trouble but I have heard this before and have yet to hear how any can be even remotely held liable or at any risk at all for legally selling a rifle with no paperwork.

I don't mind being proved wrong but so far I see no jeopardy for the seller.

You can be held liable both civilly and criminally, if they can show negligent entrustment.

I'm more familiar with the civil law in this particular instance. If you violate the law and someone is hurt, your violation is "negligence per se", it's negligent without any additional proof. The converse is not true, meaning that just because you followed the letter of the law that does NOT establish that you exercised all due care. You could always have done more in a FTF deal, for example you could go through an FFL who would run PICS, check ID, make the buyer fill out some forms. A plaintiff's lawyer could easily argue that you just didn't care who you sold to, that you were recklessly indifferent, especially if you kept no records at all.

Criminally, I'm not so sure, but negligence that leads to injuries can be criminal negligence, like handing your car keys to a drunk. Intervening criminal acts dilute your liability, but you're still going to get sucked into the mess.

I'd keep a record of who I sold a gun to, since I'm the last official name in the database. If I sell to A who later sells to B who sells to C, who recently got out of prison and has a grudge against his ex-girlfriend, I'd like to be able to show that it wasn't me who sold to the felon.