Basic Load

[Carnes]

I am beginning to assemble my collection of 'Need to Have' firearms.

For the base items, I want nothing but the best quality. If I never make significant use of these items, I want my greatest grandchildren to have them available in a fully functional state. However, I want to feel confident that I can rely on these weapons in a Survival/SHTF/EOTWAWKI situation.

I am thinking that I will want to have the following: A 9mm pistol, a .45 pistol, a 12 GA shotgun, a tactical (CQB) rifle, and a hunting (SDM/Sniper) rifle. Sound about right? (This is in regard only to firearms, I am well aware of other survival necessities)

For the 9mm: G17. (not likely to budge on this one)

The .45: H&K USP, or perhaps MK23? (although my experience with the Star-Megastar may come into play... [I am a large individual, the large frames of the MK23 and the Star fit me well])

12 GA: Remington 870-P MAX, with a Knoxx SpecOps M4 style stock? (I am considering the newer XCS Marine Magnum finish [info on the difference between the standard parkerized police and XCS finish is very welcome!])

Tactical Rifle: AR/M4 style? (I am not likely to 'budge' on this one due to my training and familiarity, but comments are welcome)

Hunting Rifle: Remington M24? Perhaps the .50 BMG?

Thanks much

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by Carnes

For the 9mm: G17. (not likely to budge on this one)

Good choice.

The .45: H&K USP, or perhaps MK23? (although my experience with the Star-Megastar may come into play... [I am a large individual, the large frames of the MK23 and the Star fit me well])

You'll never get spare parts from H&K. Get a G21 or the S&W M&P45

12 GA: Remington 870-P MAX, with a Knoxx SpecOps M4 style stock? (I am considering the newer XCS Marine Magnum finish [info on the difference between the standard parkerized police and XCS finish is very welcome!])

I would not want any "gizmo's" (the Knoxx) on a TEOTWAWKI fighting shotgun. Stick with the standard stock. Parkerizing has served the military well for years. It's the most under-rated finish out there.

Tactical Rifle: AR/M4 style? (I am not likely to 'budge' on this one due to my training and familiarity, but comments are welcome)

Colt 6920

Hunting Rifle: Remington M24? Perhaps the .50 BMG?

While it's an excellent precision rifle, the M24 is not a good choice for a hunting rifle. It's too big and heavy and as you'll need a variable power mil-dot, the optic alone would not do well in a hunting environment. I'd recommend getting a good sporting arm for a hunting rifle in addition to something like the M24 for precision work.

The .50 BMG is overkill and the magnum calibers such as the .300 Win Mag suffer from accelerated throat erosion. Will you have the means to change out barrels every 5000 rounds in a TEOTWAWKI scenario? Stay with the .308 in a precision rifle.

[VeryPrivate]

Originally Posted by Carnes

The .45: H&K USP, or perhaps MK23? (although my experience with the Star-Megastar may come into play... [I am a large individual, the large frames of the MK23 and the Star fit me well])

I am not a big fan of Stars. A friend of mine keeps talking about losing his front sight. I love my HK USP 45. The Mk23 is huge and expensive. The USP 45 Tactical model is an excellent alternative.

QUOTE=Carnes;78565]
Tactical Rifle: AR/M4 style? (I am not likely to 'budge' on this one due to my training and familiarity, but comments are welcome)
[/quote]

An AR15 is a great choice with catalogs full of options. I would go with a gas-piston upper and 16" barrel. The ZM Weapons LR-300 is one of my favorite variants.

QUOTE=Carnes;78565]
Hunting Rifle: Remington M24? Perhaps the .50 BMG?
[/quote]

The 50 BMG might be a bit much for hunting. And it takes considerable skill to use one at its maximum range. An M24 is a Remington 700. Another rifle with plenty of options available. As for caliber, I prefer the 300 Remington Ultra Magnum. 308 bullets have great ballistics and the 300 RUM shoots them about as fast as possible. .338 caliber is also a good choice. .338 Lapua is a good alternative to a 50 BMG. A semi-automatic 308 (AR-10) is another good choice and can serve both rifle purposes.

[MarcS]

If you're going to go with a Glock 17, might as well go with a 21 for your 45 to keep a similar manual of arms

Why would you want the stock on your shotgun pre-broken? I recommend getting the youth model for the shorter LOP stock. If a youth model is not available, hogue makes an excellent 12" LOP stock for the 870.

There's a lot of good AR's out there. The colt tony suggested is a good choice. I built a rock river which has been flawless. If i could justify the expense right now, i'd have one of these: http://www.defensive-edge.net/index.html

Long range rifles and hunting is an area i don't really have much experience in. I'd just recommend going with a standard caliber like 308.

[Carnes]

Thanks much for the info guys, keep it coming!

For the .45 I think I will want to stay away from H&K if I can expect to have a hard time getting spare parts. Also having both pistols as glocks does make a lot of sense for similar 'manual of arms.' I am definitely leaning toward the G21 now.

While I was looking at the different options, I found this interesting tidbit about the Sig 220...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpl0ZJkikNA

I'm a little surprised to hear everyone steering me away from the Knoxx SpecOps stock. I definitely agree that original parts are best for a weapon, and each bell and whistle added increases the risk of failure. I just figured that the Knoxx stock would likely be safe since Remington has a few options in the 870 that come with the Knoxx factory installed.

Thanks for the suggestions on the AR's. There are so many different manufacturers out there that it is really hard to know what is good, and what is not.

As for the second rifle, I guess I will have to add a new category to the basic load to include a hunting category, and a precision category. I was trying to roll them both into one, but that type of cutting corners won't serve me well.

I like the 7.62/.308 and would like both the hunting rifle and the precision rifle to have the same ammunition. So, if I were to go with the M24 for precision, what would be some good options for hunting rifles? I've never hunted the furry critters before, so my knowledge is severely lacking in this department.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by Carnes

While I was looking at the different options, I found this interesting tidbit about the Sig 220...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpl0ZJkikNA

Irrelevant. If you're using any firearm and it gets subjected to that kind of treatment, the durability of the weapon is the least of your problems.

It's interesting that the authors mentioned nothing about having to replace the roll pins on stamped slide models every 3000 to 5000 rounds (not a DIY affair). Or the fact that SIG's have have an excessive grip to boreline axis that enhances muzzle flip under recoil. Or the steep learning curve of the DA/SA trigger system.

I've seen a few people shoot SIG's remarkably well. I just don't think they're worth the effort.

I'm a little surprised to hear everyone steering me away from the Knoxx SpecOps stock. I definitely agree that original parts are best for a weapon, and each bell and whistle added increases the risk of failure. I just figured that the Knoxx stock would likely be safe since Remington has a few options in the 870 that come with the Knoxx factory installed.

Most gun and accessory makers are only interested in profits. If there is a demand they will build it and sell it disregarding whether an item has any intrinsic or practical value. I'm generalizing. The Knoxx may be a good piece of kit but as MarcS mentioned, a slightly shorter LOP than what you're accustomed to mitigates recoil significantly.

As for the second rifle, I guess I will have to add a new category to the basic load to include a hunting category, and a precision category. I was trying to roll them both into one, but that type of cutting corners won't serve me well.

I like the 7.62/.308 and would like both the hunting rifle and the precision rifle to have the same ammunition. So, if I were to go with the M24 for precision, what would be some good options for hunting rifles? I've never hunted the furry critters before, so my knowledge is severely lacking in this department.

You want the durability of controlled feed. The Winchester M70 with controlled and feed claw extractor is recommended. Problem is M70's are out of production. If you find one on the auction sites, fine, just make sure it is controlled feed.

The Kimber 84 is a claw / controlled feed but pricey. The Ruger M77 is a decent choice.

[MarcS]

Originally Posted by TonyF

You want the durability of controlled feed. The Winchester M70 with controlled and feed claw extractor is recommended. Problem is M70's are out of production.

I know it's pricey, but aren't FN's patrol/sniper rifles winchester M70's?

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by MarcS

I know it's pricey, but aren't FN's patrol/sniper rifles winchester M70's?

Not exactly but they do sport the controlled feed w/claw type mauser extractor. Even the shorter patrol rifle is too much a precision rifle for general purpose hunting.

I wish FN would sell that receiver on the commercial market as it would make a great foundation for a general purpose "practical" rifle.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by Carnes

I am beginning to assemble my collection of 'Need to Have' firearms.

For the base items, I want nothing but the best quality. If I never make significant use of these items, I want my greatest grandchildren to have them available in a fully functional state. However, I want to feel confident that I can rely on these weapons in a Survival/SHTF/EOTWAWKI situation.

With proper maintenance, any quality firearm will serve you well, don't drink the koolaid if you don't have to...

For the 9mm: G17. (not likely to budge on this one)

Then don't, there's no reason to if you prefer it.

The .45: H&K USP, or perhaps MK23? (although my experience with the Star-Megastar may come into play... [I am a large individual, the large frames of the MK23 and the Star fit me well])

HK makes one hell of a handgun, no question. Their 45's are superb, but they're pricey and only worth it if they're worth it to you. A Glock will work just as well for the most part, if you're going for a Glock in 9mm, might as well not diversify too much, get the Glock .45. As far as spare parts are concerned, you'll likely not need them to be honest, the gun should outlast you. Check out info on the HK's at www.hkpro.com's forums, some really good info, just beware of the attitude some members have, they're just a little on the jerky side sometimes.

12 GA: Remington 870-P MAX, with a Knoxx SpecOps M4 style stock? (I am considering the newer XCS Marine Magnum finish [info on the difference between the standard parkerized police and XCS finish is very welcome!])

The Knoxx does work as it was intended to, it does reduce recoil and allow for marginally better follow-up shots, BUT, I'd steer away from them until you can actually run a shotgun with one. I tried one and while it worked, I just didn't like the feel of it myself. As far as the gun itself, shop around for a used Remington 870 Police Trade-in, you'll save a great deal of money that way. Parkerizing is fine for a shotgun, but hey, it's your rifle. I'd personally go with Walter Birdsong's Black-T or even Green-T finish if I wanted and end-of-the-world finish on any rifle. For handguns, I like NP3 or Black/Green-T as a second choice...then Metacol and then Parkerizing.

Tactical Rifle: AR/M4 style? (I am not likely to 'budge' on this one due to my training and familiarity, but comments are welcome)

Again, go with what you know. There's really no way someone else can make this decision for you. If the AR style platform is what you like, get that one first. If, down the road you want to try another type of rifle, M14's, FALs, G3/PTR-91's, AK-style rifles will all serve you well. Hell, even an SKS or a Garand is a viable alternative for what you're looking to use it for. I personally prefer FAL's and M14's, but I like just about any quality rifle. They're all the same, but different.

Hunting Rifle: Remington M24? Perhaps the .50 BMG?

Too heavy. If I were going to get a rifle for this purpose, I'd check out LOSOK Custom and have a custom rifle done for about $850 built on a Mauser Action...now that's a damn durable rifle.


In the end, if you know what you like, start there...if you don't come to a group shoot or find a way to shoot a few different types of arms and find what fits you best. Good luck.

[Brick]

Stick as close as possible to military standard equipment since that is usually widely spread and adopted by the civilain shooting community also. At the very least to firearms that are so common that ammo and parts are nearly everywhere for example the M1911 series pistol.

Choose the most common military and civilian calibers for your guns also.