Glock 19/Sig P239SAS/H&K P7M8 Comparo (Long)

[Rule10b5]

I had a little extra time on my hands today, so I figured I’d do a little comparison of a few of the mid-sized carry guns sitting in my safe. Then I figured I might as well share it with everyone.
Enjoy, and take it for what it’s worth: once you factor out the physical measurements and factors of the guns it’s just the subjective (what I like) and relative (what I shoot better/faster) experience of one shooter. It’s certainly not the definitive work on the subject and, of course, YMMV.

The Guns

Glock 19. Stock 2d generation.

Sig-Sauer P239SAS. Stock (factory night sights, factory melt, factory SRT).

H&K P7M8. Stock (factory night sights).

S&W Model 19 2.5”. Trigger job (stock springs), bobbed hammer.

Glock 26. $0.25 trigger job (by yours truly), Hi-Viz fixed fiber optic sights (also by me)

The above represent a decent survey of compact carry guns. And they’re the guns I find myself most often debating carrying.

They’re all mid-sized, they’re all easy to conceal, and with the exception of the S&W Model 19, they’re all chambered for 9mm Parabellum. They’re also simply what I had sitting in my safe. I figured the G19 was the definitive striker fired polymer, the P239 a good example of the traditional DA/SA, the H&K of a single action auto, and the S&W of a like-sized revolver.

I threw in the G26 just for the heck of it, even though it’s dramatically smaller than the rest of the guns.

Dimensions

The G19, P239, and P7M8 are so ridiculously close in size that it isn’t even worth measuring. It’s basically a question of whether you want a miniscule fraction of an inch thinner (P7M8), or a miniscule fraction of an inch shorter height (the P239) or a miniscule fraction of an inch shorter OAL (the Glock). It really doesn’t matter, and it comes down to what you like best. The S&W is about the same size, too, but comparing a revolver to an auto in terms of size is just silly – they’re entirely different shapes. Personally, I think the S&W conceals easier than the others, but that’s just me.

The G26 is much smaller than the others, and disappears in any holster.
Weight (LOADED, because who cares about unloaded?)

The autos were loaded to magazine capacity (I did not chamber a round) and then weighed on a digital scale accurate to the nearest 1/8 oz. The ammunition used for weight was Speer Gold Dot +p 124 gr.

The revolver was loaded to capacity (6 rounds) with Speer Gold Dot Short
Barrel 135 gr. .357 Magnum.

Results are heaviest to lightest.

S&W Model 19 – 37.5 oz.

H&K P7M8 – 34 1/4 oz.

Sig-Sauer P239SAS – 32 oz.

Glock 19 – 30 3/8 oz.

Glock 26 – 26 3/8 oz.

Comments: No surprise here. The Glocks win, even with substantially more rounds on board than the competition. That said, I don’t notice any real difference (except for the G26) on my belt among the autos. I love the S&W, but it’s a pig in terms of weight, and you feel it when carrying all day. They all conceal just fine.

Weight v. # of Rounds

For this metric I took the LOADED weight in ounces divided by the magazine capacity of the gun (again, I didn’t count a potentially chambered round). The most “efficient” gun will have the lowest ratio of weight to capacity. Guns are listed most efficient to least efficient.

Glock 19 – 2.025 oz. per round (15)

Glock 26 – 2.63 oz. per round (10)

Sig-Sauer P239 – 4 oz. per round (8)

H&K P7M8 – 4.28 oz. per round (8)

S&W Model 19 – 6.25 oz. per round (6)

Comments: As you can see, the most efficient guns are the Glocks – the others don’t even come close. Again, no surprise. High capacity and light weight are given for a double stack polymer (Glocks especially). If round count worries you, the choice is clear. If it doesn’t (it doesn’t worry me at all), ignore this metric.

Accuracy

This is a hard one to do. You’re only going to get a relative sense, because I shot offhand. It doesn’t say anything about how you’d shoot them – only how I shoot them relative to each other. All numbers are honest. No bullshit ego or manipulation. I shoot Sharpshooter in IDPA (just missed Expert last year by a teeny smidge), and typically come in the top 5 overall of the 25-30 shooters (all classes and ranks) who show up to shoot up to shoot the monthly match at Double Action in Yeadon. In IDPA Synergy runs about even with me having a slight edge (shooting a G34) when he’s shooting his G19. Same goes for a couple of other friends.

Ammo was UMC 115 gr. standard pressure for the 9mm guns, and Speer .357 SB 135 grain for the S&W Model 19 (I know, not fair, but it’s what I had on me)

6 Shots were fired offhand at 7 yards. SHOTS were not “staged” – I squeezed smoothly through all shots, released the trigger fully, and then did it again (I didn’t get cute with reset or anything). This proved interesting with the first shot of the P239 and all shots of the S&W.

I fired 6 shots, and discarded the worst shot of each group. Groups were measured center to center of the 2 furthest holes.

Best to worst in terms of group size (I use 1/8” fractions, unreduced).

H&K P7M8 – 5/8” (this group was one ragged hole of 6 shots, I didn’t have a flyer to discard). To crush your enemies, see them driven before you…etc. It’s a fixed barrel by H&K with a light, crisp trigger. Anyone surprised should step away from the computer.

Sig-Sauer P239 (firing DA for first shot, SA for balance) – 7/8”

Sig-Sauer P239 (firing SA for all shots) – 7/8”

Glock 19 – 1 1/8”

Glock 26 – 1 3/8” (this # is due to my own idiocy in shooting two fliers in what should have been a 6/8” group. After thousands of rounds I know this gun is substantially more accurate than my G19 (better trigger, too) but I’m being honest, so I used the real number from today in ordering accuracy)

S&W Model 19 (firing DA only) – 1 7/8” (if I’d been shooting revolvers more regularly lately this would have been much, much better – more like 1” would have been likely)

Shot-to-shot times

I used a PACT timer to calculate shot to shot times for a quick double tap. All shots were measured from the bang of the first shot to the bang of the second shot. Obviously, the DA guns are going to take a fraction of a second longer to discharge the first shot (because the clock doesn’t trigger until it hears the bang) than the Glocks and P7M8. I didn’t feel like putting in a human factor and timing the shots off of my reflexes (IDPA start).
Shots were taken at 5 yards. In order to count, both shots had to be “-0” hits on a standard IDPA target. I did a 6-8 runs with each gun except the S&W (ammo limited) to get the best times.

Best runs, listed best to worst

Glock 19 – .17 splits. Consistent.

H&K P7M8 – .18. Ranged up to .20 a couple of times. Me, not the gun. The grip and trigger are dramatically different from the others. When shot regularly, my splits don’t vary this much. They’re typically dead on at .18.

Glock 26 – .19 splits. Consistent.

Sig-Sauer P239 (all SA) – .20 splits. Consistent.

Sig-Sauer P239 (DA, then SA) – .23 splits. Consistent, but a little more variation (up to .25 a couple times) than the others due to the transition.

S&W Model 19 – .32 splits. This is mostly due to the ammo, which was .357 mid-velocity. If I were shooting .38 IDPA loads I’d be in the .25-.26 range (I’ve timed it before).

Comments: No surprises here, except that the P239 did a lot better in the DA/SA run than I thought it would.

I typically shoot .17-.18 splits at 10 yards with “-0” hits, double tap, with my Glock 34 if you want to get an idea of how fast I shoot. About .20-.21 for sustained fire, “-0” at 10 yards.

Recoil Feel (purely subjective)

Ranked least recoil to most. Again, this is just my ranking, not scientific at all.

P239 – This was clearly the winner in terms of powder puff recoil. In a class by itself. Nobody could argue with this one.

Glock 19 and P7M8 – Tied for a distant second. The Glock 19 had more muzzle flip and a longer push. the P7M8 had less flip and a sharper, shorter impetus. I rank them equivalent in force at the end of the day. This is in line with the shot to shot time I had, above.

Glock 26 – Not too far behind the Glock 19. More flip, harder to hold on to. Louder. But still really damned easy to shoot fast.

S&W 19 – Clear loser. Not a fair test due to ammo choice. When shot with .38 IDPA loads it recoils like the P239.

Trigger Feel (purely subjective)

Too different, I can’t really rank these.

The S&W has the sweetest double action pull of any gun I’ve ever shot. I’ve yet to meet someone who shoots it and isn’t stunned.

The P239 has an awesomely smooth (though long) DA pull. Grade A for a stock auto pistol. I can shoot this more accurately in DA (decocking after every shot) than I can the Glocks. It’s that good. Obviously, the first shot is going to be slower than the Glocks or the P7M8. Not that it bothers me. It’s a kick ass little gun with a great trigger.

The Glocks 19 and 26 are typical well-used or prepped Glocks. They’re good, with the G26 a bit better because I did the polishing myself. A lot of people don’t like the Glock trigger pull – I happen to enjoy it, and I shoot it well and fast. No complaints. If you can’t shoot a Glock well...

The P7M8 has a near legendary SA pull. If I had to pick the absolute “best” trigger pull, the P7M8 would win.

Reliability/controls/function

They’re all 100% reliable guns. No doubt of this. None are ammo sensitive. But if that worries you, the S&W certainly has an edge.

All have easily accessed and used controls. No complaints.

The P7M8 and S&W are more irritating to clean, and would probably take the worst beating in an endurance/torture test. They’re also prone to rust. I spend more time just oiling these guns on the outside than I spend cleaning the others.

The P239 and Glocks could be cleaned and maintained by a trained monkey.

The Best of the Bunch/Closing Thoughts

The best? I can’t say, that’s up to you. It depends on what you like and what you need.

If you want to look purely at the numbers, the Glock 19 demolishes the rest of the pack. Less weight, reasonable recoil, same size, faster split times, and acceptable accuracy. And enough ammo in one magazine to stage a coup. This has been my go to favorite auto for carry purposes for years. But now I have kids (more on that below). The transition between this and my G34 for IDPA is seamless. If I didn't have kids I'd be carrying a Glock. I'd probably get lazy and carry a G26 some days.

The P239 has quickly (in a matter of days since I bought it) earned high marks in my book. I just LIKE this gun. It’s a little heavier than the Glock and has half the capacity. But it’s more intrinsically accurate, and the DA first pull is safer. Not safer for you or me. But safer if I decide to have a brain fart and forget to lock up my carry gun. My kids are small – they’re unlikely to have the finger strength to get that first shot off with a 12 lb. pull. Not that I want to test it. It also transitions nicely to a P226 for IDPA. The P226 has the same controls, slightly fatter grip, awesome sights and good slide length. Feels expensive. Shooting it is like driving a BMW M5, with the Glock being more like a Corvette Z06.

The P7M8 is a great little gun. Vanishes in the waistband, even though it’s heavy by comparison to the others. Insanely accurate. I’ve shot 25 yard groups, offhand, with UMC range fodder that approach 2”. And I’m a lousy shot. Good ammo and a ransom rest and I have no doubt this is a sub 1” gun at 25 yards. It also reloads faster than the others, due to the mag release location and squeeze cocking to close the slide. It’s also even safer than the P239, given the hand size and force needed to squeeze the cocker, combined with maintaining hand position to squeeze while operating the trigger. Probably the safest gun ever made.

What do I hate about it? It’s different from every other gun in terms of manual of arms, trigger, cleaning, and grip style. It heats up during practice sessions, and I shoot it poorly in IDPA. It doesn’t have an analogue for IDPA like the other guns (my P7M13 has enough rounds, but has the same lousy sight radius, and heats up too much during practice). I don’t shoot it as much as my other guns because it really should be the only gun you shoot if you’re going to carry it for self-defense. To be completely honest, if I didn’t shoot IDPA, I’d probably make this my carry gun and deal with not shooting other handguns.

The S&W Model 19 simply has a place in my heart (my sentiment is stupid, and has no place in the choice of a carry gun, especially since my S&W 640 does 95% of what it does in terms of shootability, and is way easier to carry). Sweet DA pull, 100% reliable, not subject to jams, easy to operate, hard for kids to accidentally discharge (no hammer spur to cock and it has a 10 lb. pull). And the transition to bigger S&W revolver for IDPA is easy, too. Plus you can use it to beat the bad guy to death if you run out of ammo. I love it, but it’s so outclassed by the other guns it isn’t even funny (I hate to admit this; I love revolvers).

My choice? For now I’m going to try to focus on carrying just the Sig-Sauer P239SAS for the next 6 months, and shooting its counterpart P226 in IDPA. We’ll see how it goes – I’ll probably end up bouncing back to the Glock for a few months, then back to the P239 for a few months, with the occasional affair with the P7M8 when I get bored.

I hope you enjoyed the review – I had a lot of fun rambling on, and shooting and weighing the guns. I’d never really taken the time to shoot them all next to each other and to document, painstakingly, difference in accuracy/speed/recoil, etc. In short, even if you hated the review, at least I learned something useful about my toys.

Best,

Rule

[Sigman]

Great post! You certainly did a lot of shooting, but I feel you have provided a nice guide for someone to reference if they were looking to pick up/carry one or more of these guns. I have owned all of these guns at one time or another (own 3 of them now), and you are spot on with your findings. I carry the Glock 26 mostly, but love the Sig 239 (mine is in both .40/.357) as well. Thanks for the effort, I enjoyed it.-Scott.

[Orive 8]

Another one here that has owned, carried, & trained with, the Sig P239, the HK P7M8 and the Glock 19.

I now own three Glock 19s.

(However, the Sig P239 and HK P7M8 are also great guns.)

[WhiteShadow]

Since when is a Sig P239 the same size as a Glock 19?

[photoshooter]

They're actually very close. I only know this because I recently went through a similar exercise.

G19 6.85 x 5.0 x 1.18
P239 6.60 x 5.1 x 1.20

Great post and in the end I have to agree that the subjective part is the most important. The Sig certainly feels smaller than the G19 even if it is substantially more heavy. I started out with a G19 and G26 because they seemed like perfect starter guns. I like them but it seemed redundant to me having both of them. I've also acquired 5 Sigs so far. The Sigs are certainly harder for me to conceal but I simply like them better. Soon the G19 will be leaving and I hope to get a P239 instead.

[Philbert]

I also looked into the P239. I found myself accidentally releasing the mag when pulling the DA trigger. I know that's a fault with me and not the gun, but it put me off using it as a carry gun. And made me resolve to never buy a defensive gun without test shooting it first.

[ksig1869]

Great post. I personally prefer the P239, I'm a little biased of course. But i do like the Glock 19 the more I shoot it, but not so much with the 26. Havent shot the HK though.

[Rule10b5]

Since when is a Sig P239 the same size as a Glock 19?

Since always.


http://www.glock.com/english/glock19_tech.htm


http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/Sho...&productid=251

[granuale]

I LOoooooooove my P7, but you have to give the Glock points on price and that you can throw a stone and hit a Glock armorer and finding someone qualified who really knows a P7 is much harder.

[synergy]

All numbers are honest. No bullshit ego or manipulation. I shoot Sharpshooter in IDPA (just missed Expert last year by a teeny smidge), and typically come in the top 5 overall of the 25-30 shooters (all classes and ranks) who show up to shoot up to shoot the monthly match at Double Action in Yeadon. In IDPA Synergy runs about even with me having a slight edge (shooting a G34) when he’s shooting his G19. Same goes for a couple of other friends.

You only shoot "sharpshooter" because you screwed the pooch on the qualification.

You and I both have edged out a few master class shooters on occasion, depending on the stage, how warmed up we were...etc.

You're a solid Expert class shooter... you just want to hustle someone here, don't 'cha?

Sorry I didn't call you about shooting this morning...I totally forgot about it until I drove past the range on the way into work today.