Round Chambering Techniques

[synergy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

Andy has been doing very little teaching in the US over the last 5 years. My recollection goes back from before that. What he teaches today, I can't vouch for.

No worries. I read his book a couple years ago, but don't remember that. For all I know, he advocated just what you say.

I can't remember who I lent that book too...

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by synergy

Is that proof that people can always think through problems on the fly, under extreme stress? No...but I don't think we can assume that people can't, either.

Individual anecdotes come in all flavors. People doing the wrong thing in driving emergencies is extremely common. And people drive every day, and practice semi-emergencies all the time.

Normal shooters are not even in that same "regular usage" ballpack with gun as as with cars.

Yes, until it is taken too far, and you handicap yourself by trying to get away without learning the best ways to do things. As mentioned about...you don't want to drive nails with a screwdriver.

This is the wrong analogy. Racking achieves everything the SS achieves. It's not the wrong or the simplistic tool at all.

I submit that multiplying your techniques and choices to optimize every single possibility MAY give you a faster elapsed time at a range event, but is a poor doctrinal choice for real combat.

I think training to do a TRB on an empty gun is stupid, FWIW. That's just dumbing things down past the point of having a benefit, IMO.

Really? The benefit is that you don't have to cognitively diagnose the gun. THAT is worth a few saved milliseconds.

All I can say is, do some training exercise where adrenaline flows, and try relying on making cognitive decisions.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

Individual anecdotes come in all flavors. People doing the wrong thing in driving emergencies is extremely common. And people drive every day, and practice semi-emergencies all the time.

Normal shooters are not even in that same "regular usage" ballpack with gun as as with cars.



This is the wrong analogy. Racking achieves everything the SS achieves. It's not the wrong or the simplistic tool at all.

I submit that multiplying your techniques and choices to optimize every single possibility MAY give you a faster elapsed time at a range event, but is a poor doctrinal choice for real combat.



Really? The benefit is that you don't have to cognitively diagnose the gun. THAT is worth a few saved milliseconds.

You can either diagnose an empty gun before you TRB, or after you TRB...diagnosing in fewer steps would save you time. Either way, you need to realize that you need to eject the mag, then insert and chamber more rounds.

Why go through a TRB cycle before the "oh shit" moment, when you could just do it before the TRB?

The same diagnosis could help you diagnose and fix a double feed quicker, too.

All I can say is, do some training exercise where adrenaline flows, and try relying on making cognitive decisions.

I have...not FOF but I've done some stressful shooting drills. They verified that both techniques can go down the tubes.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by synergy

You can either diagnose an empty gun before you TRB, or after you TRB...diagnosing in fewer steps would save you time. Either way, you need to realize that you need to eject the mag, then insert and chamber more rounds.

Why go through a TRB cycle before the "oh shit" moment, when you could just do it before the TRB?

The same diagnosis could help you diagnose and fix a double feed quicker, too.

I predict you'll find that most, virtually all, trainers advocate NON-diagnostic manipulations, such that there are NO cognitive decisions, NO diagnosis.

If you fire and hear "click," you do A then B, but at no time do you look at the gun and pontificate what the gun's appearance might tell you.

The one thing you don't want to do in Condition Black is use the cognitive part of your brain for operating the gun. All the correct intuition and guesswork and resultant successful improvisation you would produce when calm will very likely fly right out the window under extreme stress.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by synergy

I have...not FOF but I've done some stressful shooting drills. They verified that both techniques can go down the tubes.

Just so. ANYTHING can go down the tubes. ANYTHING can fail. Really well trained shooters can go into vaporlock or bungle the simplest chore.

That's why the goal of many/most trainers is to simplify technique, remove choices, always opt for gross motor skills and commonality of approach.

[d90king]

dgg9;907664Saying something is to be done only at advanced levels essentially agrees with what I've been saying; namely that racking is the more natural, stress-acclimated approach 99.999% of gun owners are NOT going to become unconsciously competent "operators." Saying something is an operator's technique completely makes my case for me.

IIRC: Farnam, Suarez, Stanford, Givens = rack.

I disagree! I think what you are missing in the equation is the simple fact that when you are learning solid fundamentals that the best way to ingrain what you are learning is through the easiest way to accomplish that task at hand. As you train and become more proficient with your weapon you are looking for the most efficient way to accomplish the same task.

With anything in life that you practice or train regularly doing, you start with the simplest way to accomplish the task. In many cases the simplest way is not always the best way or the fastest way. When you are learning to do something, your standards are very different than the standards you will have when you set out to master that skill set.

I will add that I don't believe that there is only one way to accomplish your goal. If you can obtain your desired goals using a certain methodology, then I believe that is the method you should use because it is the method that works best for YOU. In my opinion this approach is what separates a great trainer from an ordinary run of the mill trainer. A great trainer never says "this is the only way to do this". Great ones will tell you to practice multiple techniques and use the one that works best for you and the one that gives you the most confidence.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by dgg9

I predict you'll find that most, virtually all, trainers advocate NON-diagnostic manipulations, such that there are NO cognitive decisions, NO diagnosis.

If you fire and hear "click," you do A then B, but at no time do you look at the gun and pontificate what the gun's appearance might tell you.

The one thing you don't want to do in Condition Black is use the cognitive part of your brain for operating the gun. All the correct intuition and guesswork and resultant successful improvisation you would produce when calm will very likely fly right out the window under extreme stress.

Off of the top of my head... Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Kyle Lamb, and Paul Howe all teach some "diagnostic manipulations".

Not looking at the firearm is just blindly doing something...even if it's wrong. You will be performing more tasks along the way to the eventual fix. Being in this "high stress" situation...you'll likely fumble the techniques along the way...taking even longer to get your gun back up and running.

If you go TRB, and the gun is still at slide lock...do you then progress to double feed clearing technique? Or a reload technique? How many times do you rack on a reload? How many times do you rack on a double feed clearance?

Do you want to put more rounds into the gun before you observe the problem round exiting?

The military uses SPORTS....the O stands for Observe.

Observation is a required skill for survival. I don't think it's too much to ask to observe an empty gun.



What I've noticed in my own experience....I had an IDPA match, where I did exactly what the SO told me to do. As a result, I started the stage with no magazine in my firearm (neither of us were thinking...i don't remember if we were BS'ing, or what.) I drew, fired 1 shot, went to fire another...click. I observed that the slide was still forward...so I TRB'ed it. Another click....at this point I had the "oh shit" moment...and it took me a sec before I thought to draw another mag. It was essentially a mental shut down. I thought to draw my blade, as I've done a couple time when the drill lasts longer than I had ammo for.... but that was about the extent of my thoughts. The fact that the action cleanly cycled both times...threw me off.

It was just a match..and the SO said he was partially to blame, as I had been told specifically to only do what I was told....but still, it was an interesting event.


Personally, when I get a click when the slide is forward, I TRB. When the slide is locked to the rear, I reload. When the slide is partially open, but there was an FTE...I TRB, then go into a double feed drill if I need to. The nano-second where my eyes notice that my sights are further back than usual, and the slide is locked to the rear....helps me pick the more appropriate action to take.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by d90king

I disagree! I think what you are missing in the equation is the simple fact that when you are learning solid fundamentals that the best way to ingrain what you are learning is through the easiest way to accomplish that task at hand. As you train and become more proficient with your weapon you are looking for the most efficient way to accomplish the same task.

100% disagree. Efficiency of any one technique wrt any one goal is only ONE criterion, and not the most important factor for emergency conditions.

In tranquil times, there's little problem having 100 different techniques to solve 100 different problems. Why? Because there's no life and death pressure. When you introduce reactive stress and adrenaline, you DON'T want to have to use your cognitive mind to sift through this big Rolodex of techniques to decide which one shaves off a few milliseconds.

That kind of "hmmm, use the 5 Wood here...or maybe the 9 Iron....or the putter?" dithering will get you killed in a real gunfight. If one technique covers all 100 problems, it is infinitely preferable -- even if it solves some of the problems slightly inefficiently.

That's why the hammer/screwdriver analogies all fail. You're not at home, studying your toolbox, with all day to pick just the right tool exactly right for this task. In combat, you have to do something that works RIGHTTHIS&%*INGSECOND. You don't need 100 perfect choices. You need 1 good choice.

I will add that I don't believe that there is only one way to accomplish your goal.

We're subtlely not saying the same thing, though. The difference is important. I'm not saying there's only one way to solve problem X. What I'm saying is:

1. Once you've decided how you're going to solve problem X, having tried all the ways, stick with that method, and
2. If one way solves X and Y in a good-enough way, that's better than the perfect solution for X and the different perfect solution for Y -- under combat conditions.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by synergy

Off of the top of my head... Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Kyle Lamb, and Paul Howe all teach "diagnostic manipulations".

...specifically?

[d90king]

Originally Posted by dgg9

I predict you'll find that most, virtually all, trainers advocate NON-diagnostic manipulations, such that there are NO cognitive decisions, NO diagnosis.

If you fire and hear "click," you do A then B, but at no time do you look at the gun and pontificate what the gun's appearance might tell you.

The one thing you don't want to do in Condition Black is use the cognitive part of your brain for operating the gun. All the correct intuition and guesswork and resultant successful improvisation you would produce when calm will very likely fly right out the window under extreme stress.

Huh? You don't believe when using a rifle that it is important to know why it went click? Lets take it a step further... You rifle goes click, you release the magazine, insert a fresh one charge your weapon (or try to) and then you realize the click was because you had a double or another type of malfunction. You are now starting over and having to clear the malfunction that was already present the first time your weapon went click.

Whatever happened to rolling the rifle and checking the chamber to diagnose why it went click?

I can assure you that ALL trainers do NOT advocate your opinion on the matter... Heck you can take the easy way out and simply watch Travis or Costa on DVD and you will see two who do not. LAV also disagrees...

Here is a quick clip from the last class I was at... It clearly contradicts your thoughts...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkpuhIQKkgQ