.223 is a bad round for home defense. (not!)

[synergy]

http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/...enetration.htm

Came across this again.
Just illustrates how pistol rounds, .223, and shotgun rounds fair inside the home.

The pistol rounds have the mass/stabilization to keep punching through walls.

The buckshot is round and heavy, and as a result, won't tumble and loose energy...so it slices through walls, too. Birdshot can't reliably incapacitate human threats well, so that isn't even worth using.

The .223 was .55gr FMJ (M193 probably) and still did much better than the pistol rounds. This gives you a more lethal round, with a better chance of survivability for unintended victims downrange, hiding in other rooms. Rounds like the Federal Bonded Tactical, Federal TRU, or Hornady TAP would loose energy even faster, and penetrate less.

Hopefully folks will take note of this as they select and train with their home defense weapon of choice.

[Legion_Prime]

Originally Posted by synergy

Hopefully folks will take note of this as they select and train with their home defense weapon of choice.

Never happen. Everyone knows a 12 ga. is the best for home defense, you just rack the slide and you don't even have to fire it.
There's a reason many agencies have adopted the practice of switching to their secondary when a target is behind cover (NOT concealment) to drive them out due to the penetration characteristics of a pistol round over a rifle round.

[camper]

Originally Posted by Legion_Prime

Never happen. Everyone knows a 12 ga. is the best for home defense, you just rack the slide and you don't even have to fire it.
There's a reason many agencies have adopted the practice of switching to their secondary when a target is behind cover (NOT concealment) to drive them out due to the penetration characteristics of a pistol round over a rifle round.

No...YOU got it wrong. All you have to do is tell them "I dialed 911" and the crooks will crap themselves and lie prone on the floor while you are free to either give them the finger, or lean casually on the wall with one leg crossed over the other as you breathe on your knuckles and rub them on your shirt as if to shine them.

Guns in the home don't protect people--a police force stretched beyond its capacity by budget cuts, improper training, and lack of manpower does.

camper

[QuakertownRich]

Originally Posted by camper

No...YOU got it wrong. All you have to do is tell them "I dialed 911" and the crooks will crap themselves and lie prone on the floor while you are free to either give them the finger, or lean casually on the wall with one leg crossed over the other as you breathe on your knuckles and rub them on your shirt as if to shine them.

Guns in the home don't protect people--a police force stretched beyond its capacity by budget cuts, improper training, and lack of manpower does.

camper

I believe this is what some refer to as "sarcasm". I could be wrong, YMMV.
Beaten to death, but ok. If/whenever a HI happens, I got the bases covered. The problem will be which to grab first. I can't totally imagine the thoughts that would be going through my mind, but if it came down to me defending me and mines' life, I am thinking, if possible, I will grab the most lethal.

[Legion_Prime]

Yeah, I have both my USP and my AR next to my bed and a few months ago waking up from a dream I found that I had grabbed the AR and a magazine despite it being on the side oppisite from where I kept my M16 in my sleeping bag. Pistols and shotties may be fine for CC and hunting (yes I would CC a SBS ) but in a HI the rifle should be your go to gun, the rest are best suited for fighting your way to the rifle you should have had in the first place.

[phillyd2]

I'll be honest that the first I heard this I did not believe it because it went counter to what I thought was conventional wisdom. I think it was Tony here that set me straight. Still does not makes sense to my brain but facts be facts.

Since then the AR has relieved the 870 for next to bed duty.

[Legion_Prime]

Actually according to the video you should have just loaded your 870 with birdshot. However I am far more familiar with my AR and it's an all around more useful firearm so I'm just gonna stick with it.
It may be counter to "conventional wisdom" however it is not counter to logic or the laws of physics. Interesting to see them all next to each other in one demo though.

[Capt Quahog]

Good thread . . . Have an old M37 Ithaca former police pump gun stashed down in the command post / family room downstairs. Up in the master BR there is another Remington 870 ex-cop riot gun snuggled away near the bed. The old M1911 Govt .45ACP auto in it's spot within easy reach behind the bed post and provides a nice little insurance policy. Both of the shotguns have no slings or added "tactical" stuff attached. At 3:00 in the morning when stumbling around mostly still asleep, it's figured that I can't deal with anything more to confuse this muddled mind. No side-saddle ammo holders or other added goodies. Each of these 12-gauge guns holds four rounds in the tube. To my thinking, if it can't be killed or stopped with four rounds of Triple-Ott buckshot then you don't need a shotgun. In that case, you better make a grab for the bucket of Holy Water and a big Crucifix.

Anyway, we have a long circular driveway out front that's more than 100-feet each side. The other three sides of the house are pretty much closed off with difficult walking ground even in daylight. Aside from the jagged rocky ground with sharp shale sticking up, there is a couple of hundred feet of high stockade fence. The wife also has the ground under the scrub brush filled with that horrible black plastic chicken wire fencing crap. It's so people can't walk. Yeah, I know . . . I almost got killed. That stuff is brutal and can not be seen until a person's legs are tangled in it and you fall down to puncture a lung on the razor sharp rocks sticking up all over the place.

So that leaves the two long front driveways. Unlike an old Chuck Bronson Death Wish movie, mobs of screaming marauder miscreants are not going to come on foot in a big cluster as easy fodder for a shotgun. Instead, the thugs will be motorized and probably come in fast in more than one vehicle. Being this is a split level house with the first floor up high, there are two small somewhat hidden windows that look down on both driveways out to the street. Have M1 Garand rifles located near those windows with a few en bloc clips close at hand. Figure that with a little luck, at least the lead vehicle could be knocked out first with clear shots of 30.06 through the windshield. Object is . . . eliminate the car's driver first. The sight of the guy's head exploding with resultant blood n' gore chaos will likely cause panic among the bad guys. Also, a bullet riddled headless corpse behind the steering wheel will probably. at least for a time, disable the vehicle. Unless these people are some kind of hard ass shock troops, most will hopefully retreat. Disable the vehicle and they're in the open and on foot. More can be eliminated as they try to escape. At least with this house, the front open area is a natural killing ground for a defender with a high powered rifle. This was a factor when we bought the property. The first object is to keep them outside of the house in the open. I'm too old and fat for close combat with a shotgun inside the building with multiple armed intruders. Please . . . keep em outside!

Okay . . . so . . we get back to rifles in .223 caliber. Currently, for my own needs, I want a lightweight rifle for the wife's use. It should be with a powerful fast round that will be available even in bad times. The .223 round seems ideal! AR-15 type rifles will not be considered as I personally have no use for the things and don't trust them. This is from direct experience long ago and far away. Yeah, yeah, I know that the AR-15 has been greatly improved since the 1960s . . . yadda . . yadda. It don't mean nuthin! Macho looking black plastic gun but I don't like them and don't trust em to defend life and property. Think that the things are still weak and will jam up in a pinch.

I'm leaning toward (of all things) a Mini-14 Ruger in .223 for my wife's use. Was looking at M1 Carbines as those are cool and have owned many. The .30 calilber carbine round is simply not as available as the .223. Should things get tough, one can always bribe some military dude with a fifth of Jack Daniels sour mash. Thing is, the .223 round with the basic M1 Garand / M14 style operating system of the Ruger mini-14 is probably the way to go.

Then too, I was considering an AK-47 type rifle or even an SKS in 7.62 x 39. There's still something largely appealing for using an American - New Hamphire built carbine in .223 such as the Ruger mini-14. With a couple or three 30-round magazines, she could sure spray out a whole lot of full metal jacket slugs in a very short time.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Legion_Prime

Actually according to the video you should have just loaded your 870 with birdshot.

That is why I won't ever recommend shooting birdshot at people who want to kill you.

That's a 12ga #8 heavy dove load, from an 18" bbl. Average penetration for the pellets are 4.5" into gelatin. FBI minimums for ammo selection are 12", with 16" being optimal.

Ray Charles can see the problem here.

I dunno why they didn't address it more in that video...Pincus's mumbo-jumbo about "this will seriously impede someone's ability to hurt you" is a whole lot of FAIL. Throwing a frying pan at the SOB will "impede their ability to hurt you" too. That's not why you've opted to use lethal force though. I guess this is why I take my hints from guys who've been in numerous gunfights, and not folks who theorize about dynamic critical incidents.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Capt Quahog

To my thinking, if it can't be killed or stopped with four rounds of Triple-Ott buckshot then you don't need a shotgun. In that case, you better make a grab for the bucket of Holy Water and a big Crucifix.

That argument doesn't hold any water, in my book. Folks who think it's impossible to miss with a shotgun haven't seen their patterns at 5 yards. Try a Tueller drill with a shotgun sometime and let me know how many hits you can score. I'll try it with my AR and we can compare notes.

Okay . . . so . . we get back to rifles in .223 caliber. Currently, for my own needs, I want a lightweight rifle for the wife's use. It should be with a powerful fast round that will be available even in bad times. The .223 round seems ideal! AR-15 type rifles will not be considered as I personally have no use for the things and don't trust them. This is from direct experience long ago and far away. Yeah, yeah, I know that the AR-15 has been greatly improved since the 1960s . . . yadda . . yadda. It don't mean nuthin! Macho looking black plastic gun but I don't like them and don't trust em to defend life and property. Think that the things are still weak and will jam up in a pinch.

You should council all the SWAT teams using them then, as they feel they are ideal for entering houses and dispatching threats with. You should really open your eyes to how they perform now...you're missing out on a LOT.

I'm leaning toward (of all things) a Mini-14 Ruger in .223 for my wife's use. Was looking at M1 Carbines as those are cool and have owned many. The .30 calilber carbine round is simply not as available as the .223. Should things get tough, one can always bribe some military dude with a fifth of Jack Daniels sour mash. Thing is, the .223 round with the basic M1 Garand / M14 style operating system of the Ruger mini-14 is probably the way to go.

I've seen plenty of mini's jam up on the range, their control package sucks compared to an AR, reloads take longer, and it's a lot harder to put a red dot and light on a Mini than an AR. Both of which will strongly enhance your ability to fight with the carbine.

Then too, I was considering an AK-47 type rifle or even an SKS in 7.62 x 39. There's still something largely appealing for using an American - New Hamphire built carbine in .223 such as the Ruger mini-14. With a couple or three 30-round magazines, she could sure spray out a whole lot of full metal jacket slugs in a very short time.

Awesome, if you want more recoil, more overpenetration, poor controls, and slower reloads.

Not saying there is only "1 gun to use" for HD...but there is a lot to be said for them, and you should really look into them and learn about how they perform today, before you rule them out.