FBI Ammo Data Request

[n0nleft]

I was just searching through old threads and I came across a thread where someone talked about the FBI doing a study using different ammo to find out which is the best/most effective. Does anyone have a link or a pdf of this report. I'm kind of curious to see what the entire study found. I did look on Google but only found links that talk about the report, but none of them ever said what the study found.

I tried to use the search function but came up empty. At this point I've spent more time researching my first pistol/gun over any school paper topic or single Mustang mod I've ever done. I'm not sure what that says about me or guns.

[XD45]

no link, but get a 10mm

[roland]

I've never heard of an FBI datalog, but The international Wound Ballistics Asssociation and others have.

http://www.iwba.com

Here's a good start:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/bibliog.htm

And a place to order a book on bullet penetration:
http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/2nd_printing_notice.html

[n0nleft]

Originally Posted by XD45

no link, but get a 10mm

I looked at that gun a little but decided against it since SA doesn't make an XD in that caliber.

[n0nleft]

Originally Posted by roland

I've never heard of an FBI datalog, but The international Wound Ballistics Asssociation and others have.

http://www.iwba.com

Here's a good start:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/bibliog.htm

And a place to order a book on bullet penetration:
http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/2nd_printing_notice.html

Thanx for the links, but the first one does work. I think I found the complete FBI report here broken into 2 parts: http://www.pointshooting.com/fbipart1.htm and http://www.pointshooting.com/fbipart2.htm

[n0nleft]

I just read over one of the links, frfrog, and in there he stated that

"a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink."

I can't find where in the article it shows this. I take his word for it but I'd just like to know some info behind that statement.

[roland]

Originally Posted by n0nleft

I just read over one of the links, frfrog, and in there he stated that

"a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink."

I can't find where in the article it shows this. I take his word for it but I'd just like to know some info behind that statement.

Sorry about the IWBA link, Used to be good, That is the technical group to look for, for finding the info you seek. Mr Frog has always good info. Although may be getting old now.

About the 9 and 40 not expanding is amoung popular debate and probably the bullets your shooting. Yeah, it's gonna take some looking around. I think you understand that a 45 dosn't shrink, kinda self explanatory. The IWBA was headed by a col. last name escapes me now, I'm not at home but could give the info to you in a month or so. There is another fellow on this forum that knows of this, hopfully he'll chime in. The wound ballistics is the actuall study of what a certain bullet does when it encounters human flesh or facimle, which is also debated but the IWBA showed consistent results, in their findings.

It really gets in depth, and gonna take some research.

I'll try to find a better link to the IWBA stuff.

[roland]

From reading your link to the first part of the FBI report-although dosn't appear to be official, Col. Fackler-He's the guy I was telling you that is the head of the IWBA. Very knowledgeable.

And a note on temporary cavity, or cavitation- Ignore it, it don't mean nothin, body tissues can expand without injury 100's of percent, only the crushing and tearing of tissue can due damage. Ergo, shot placement is the most critical factor in wound ballistics and not caliber.

[roland]

In reading the second link to the "FBI" report it is definitly not an FBI report but one persons research. His footnotes are a good indication why I say to look into the IWBA.

3 Fackler, M.L., MD: "What's Wrong with the Wound Ballistics Literature, and Why", Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, Report No. 239, July, 1987.

4 Fackler, M.L., M.D., Director, Wound Ballistics Laboratory, Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, letter: "Bullet Performance Misconceptions", International Defense Review 3; 369-370, 1987.

5 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September, 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

8 Fackler, M.L., Malinowski, J.A.: "The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components", Journal of Trauma 25, 522-529, 1985.

9 Fackler, M.L., MD: "Missile Caused Wounds", Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, Report No. 231, April 1987.

11 Fackler, M.L., MD: "Ballistic Injury", Annals of Emergency Medicine 15: 12 December 1986.

12 Fackler, M.L., Surinchak, J.S., Malinowski, J.A.; et.al.: "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue Disruption", Journal of Trauma 24: 35-39, 1984.

13 Fragmenting rifle bullets in some of Fackler's experiments have caused damage 9 centimeters from the permanent cavity. Such remote damage is not found in handgun wounds. Fackler stated at the Workshop that when a handgun bullet does fragment the pieces typically are found within one centimeter of the wound track.

14 Fackler, M.L., M.D., Director, Wound Ballistics Laboratory, Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, letter: "Bullet Performance Misconceptions", International Defense Review 3; 369-370, 1987.

19 Fackler, M.L., Surinchak, J.S., Malinowski, J.A.; et.al.: "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue Disruption", Journal of Trauma 24: 35-39, 1984.

21 Fackler, M.L., Surinchak, J.S., Malinowski, J.A.; et.al.: "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue Disruption", Journal of Trauma 24: 35-39, 1984.

22 Fackler, M.L., MD: "Ballistic Injury", Annals of Emergency Medicine 15: 12 December 1986.

23 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September, 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

24 Fackler, M.L., MD: "Ballistic Injury", Annals of Emergency Medicine 15: 12 December 1986.

25 Fackler, M.L., Malinowski, J.A.: "The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components", Journal of Trauma 25: 522-529, 1985.

27 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

28 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

33 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September, 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

35 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September, 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

36 Wound Ballistic Workshop: "9mm vs. .45 Auto", FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, September 1987. Conclusion of the Workshop.

37 Fackler, M.L., M.D., Director, Wound Ballistics Laboratory, Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, letter: "Bullet Performance Misconceptions", International Defense Review 3; 369-370, 1987.

39 This exercise was suggested by Dr. Martin L. Fackler, U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory, Letterman Army Institute of Research, San Francisco, California, as a way to demonstrate the problematical results of even the best results sought in training, i.e., shots to the center of mass of a target. It illustrates the very small actually critical areas within the relatively vast mass of the human target.

42 Fackler, M.L., MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987.

43 Smith, O’Brien C., MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987.

44 Fackler, M.L., MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987.


Note That the workshops are presented by IWBA although it is not stated. Some of this fellows footnotes are lacking in their authenticity. such as:

41 The numbers can be held down to reasonable limits by a scientific approach that collects objective information from investigative and forensic sources and sorts it by vital organs struck and target reactions to being hit. The critical questions are what damage was done and what was the reaction of the adversary.

40 Severity is a function of location, depth, and amount of tissue destroyed.

I agree with #40, but the author dosn't state where it came from.

38 He defines a one shot stop as one in which the subject dropped, gave up, or did not run more than 10 feet.


2 Ideally, immediate incapacitation occurs instantaneously.

The author should have given the name of the person who stated these, but, oh well.

[VeryPrivate]

The FBI report was done after 2 agents with 9mm's were killed in Miami. The FBI blamed inadequate penetration of the 9mm as contributing to the agents' death. It is about 18 years old.

The FBI report's biggest impact was establishing a testing protocol to judge ammunition effectiveness. To simplify the protocol:

1. 10% ballistic gelatin is used as the test medium.
2. 12 inches of penetration is "required".
3. The bullets are tested against the following targets:

1) Bare gelatin

2) Heavy clothing.

3) 20-gauge steel.

4) Wallboard.

5) Plywood.

6) Auto-Glass.

Usually, ammo makers post a chart of these results on their website.