What can you tell me about Revolutionary War Muskets?

[hiflyf22]

I'm thinking of getting this reproduction of a Charleville musket.

However, I'm a total newbie.

Any history or info on the Charleville or Brown Bess muskets would be appreciated.

[brian]

most guns of the period were smooth bores. think shotgun that only fired one "pellet" albeit a very one. the average was a 60caliber. they were not accurate by any means. hitting a target at 50 yards would have been a feat.
one of the main reasons the european armies fought in line like that, was in effect to turn the line into a shotgun.
our rifles(average cal 45) could pick a specific man off at a few hundred yards. but were a lot slower to load. the red coats were not impressed by either the accuracy nor method in which we employed them. the british army was made up of upper class officers with the bulk being made up of conscripts and bottom feeders that had no where else to go. they were a professional army, but one in which the hand did'nt know what the elbow wanted.


that add reads "rifle" several times, but i would be leery that it's really a smooth bore.

[Pete D.]

Books have been written about the subject of muskets of the era. A website devoted to traditional BP firearms is www.muzzleloadingforum.com. Lots of info there.
The "Volley fire" idea of the British was a well rehearsed and remarkably effective tactic of the time, used against cavalry. It produced a prodigious and continual volume of fire - lots of lead in the air - from the British Fighting square - 100 men to a front three deep.
While each individual firearm may not have been particularly accurate, the massed effect was devastating. Probably the most famous example of the effectiveness of the arrangement is the defeat of the French cavalry charge (5000 horses) at the battle of Waterloo.
Modern muskets of the Brown Bess/Charleville type, loaded with tightly patched round balls can produce handsized or better groups at 50 yards, as can smoothbore fowlers.
Pete

[Adam M Geer]

"What can you tell me about Revolutionary War Muskets?"

They are old

[shiloh]

Originally Posted by hiflyf22

I'm thinking of getting this reproduction of a Charleville musket.

That piece you're looking at is a non-firing replica -- it's made by an outfit called Denix, which makes cheap replicas that can't fire and can't be made to fire. You can't get a shootable replica of the Charleville musket for $190.

For a good article on the history and use of the Charleville, see this article from American Rifleman.

If you're looking to get into reenacting or target shooting with a Charleville, the best replica commonly available is the Pedersoli 1766 Charleville (http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?ite...Id=220&lang=en). Dixie Gun Works is selling them for a cool $1,350. See http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...roducts_id=956. Pedersoli's Brown Bess replica is a little less at $995. You might be able to pick up a used one for less if you poke around a bit.

If you're interested in seeing what shooting one is like before investing in buying one for yourself, you might want to check out an event or meet some guys in one of the local Rev War reenactment units, who are always eager to introduce folks to the hobby. Most units are members of the Continental Line, the Brigade of the American Revolution, or, if you want to join the "other side," the British Brigade.

I don't have a Charleville or any other flintlock guns; all my blackpowder guns are Civil War era. I have shot some flinties, though, and they are literally a blast -- although it takes some getting used to the powder in the flash pan going off so close to your face.

[shiloh]

Originally Posted by Pete D.

Modern muskets of the Brown Bess/Charleville type, loaded with tightly patched round balls can produce handsized or better groups at 50 yards, as can smoothbore fowlers.
Pete

Absolutely right. While I don't have a Charleville or Brown Bess, I do have an U.S. Model 1842 Springfield smoothbore musket. Except for the ignition system (percussion v. flintlock) it's essentially the same, accuracy wise, as the Charleville. I can drill a pie-plate size target at 50 yards all day (OK, not all day, as the thing weighs 10 freakin' pounds and has a recoil like an angry mule, but you get the point), and I'm not a particularly good shot. They were very effective weapons for their day.

[Poonie]

Originally Posted by brian

most guns of the period were smooth bores. think shotgun that only fired one "pellet" albeit a very one. the average was a 60caliber. they were not accurate by any means. hitting a target at 50 yards would have been a feat.


that add reads "rifle" several times, but i would be leery that it's really a smooth bore.

I beg to differ here. I once saw a man at our range firing a replica Brown Bess at a sillouette target 100 yards away, and consistently hitting the chest area. Now, his group was the size of a soccer ball but still, he was hitting what he was aiming at. He was using about 65grns of powder which I'm sure combined with his patching and technique had something to do with it. Regardless, don't be fooled into thinking that a smoothbore musket was inaccurate. In the right hands it could be deadly.

[Gunny1969]

The smooth bore musket could be loaded and fired 3 times for every single load and fire of a rifled barrel of those times. You can typically find both smooth bore and rifled reproductions of most muzzleloaders. If you want accuracy, go with the rifled version. If you want authenticity, go with the smooth bore version (if that was the flavor of the muzzle loader at that time).

Links:

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/es...8Side+Locks%29

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(mlj...5))/Index.aspx

[Pete D.]

The least expensive shootable muskets that I know of are sold by Middlesex Village Trading. (http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.c...hMuskets.SHTML)
Know that there is some (and continuing) debate about the quality of guns made in India.
Personally, I have no problem with what Middlesex sells. I own two of their firearms (a Howdah pistol and a Blunderbuss) and am satisfied with both. Are they the best quality? No. Are they shootable. Yes.
They will still run you double or triple what the Denix replica was selling for.
Pete

[PA Rifleman]

Originally Posted by hiflyf22

I'm thinking of getting this reproduction of a Charleville musket.

However, I'm a total newbie.

Any history or info on the Charleville or Brown Bess muskets would be appreciated.

Your question is so broad, it's impossible to answer in a single post. Here are a few points to ponder.

As others have pointed out about your musket-apparent, it's a non-firing replica. You didn't specify what you intended to use it for, I'll assume you're bright enough to realize it was non-firing. If so, you're obviously looking for a display item. My subject matter strength is firing and maintaining them, and that's the main feature of the course I've been teaching over the last few years.

I have both a "Bess" (correct name is a land pattern musket) and a "Charleville" 1766. One point to keep in mind these guns roamed the earth before the advent of interchangeable machine part technology. This means a couple of things: first, no two are alike, it's more of a general family of muskets. This is true of both the British and French muskets. Second, nearly all parts required some hand-fitting during repair or routine service. These guns required routine service far more than today's firearms.

The bore sizes, and thus the bullets, had a fair amount of variation. Today's factory-made muskets tend to fall into standard bore (caliber) sizes, typically 60, 62, 69 & 75. Most of the reproduction British muskets are 75 caliber and most French muskets & 1777 cal pistols are 69 caliber.

Today's reproductions are made to a far higher quality, particularly the Italian reproductions. While the Indian guns take a lot of flak and criticism over quality, they're made much in the same way as the originals. The two obvious differences is the almost extreme high polish the Indians leave on the steel parts, and their extensive use of teak for the stocks. The main drawback is they haven't quite perfected their stock profile copying yet, otherwise their muskets are pretty close. The Italian muskets are by far the highest quality, rivaling modern firearms. They do have interchangeable parts, and are the easiest to repair for this reason. They aren't perfect reproductions, since the originals weren't made to this standard.

US arms in the Revolution period were hodge-podge, to saw the least. They were trade guns, fowlers, surplus or captured muskets, hybrids made from parts or broken guns and occasionally the family rifle. The obvious problem was logistics.

Photos:

Here's our West Wall, from left to right:

• French musket, 1766 pattern, 69 cal flintlock (repro-Pedersoli)
• British musket, 1756 second land pattern, 75 cal flintlock (Pedersoli)
• Generic 10 gauge blunderbuss, flintlock (repro)
• Pennsylvania Rifle, 50 cal flintlock (Repro-Traditions)
• US rifled musket 1842 pattern, 69 cal percussion (repro-Armi Sport?)
• US rifled musket 1861 pattern, 58 cal percussion (repro-custom made)
• Thompson Center Renegade 54 cal percussion (modern)
• Keystone Cricket, .22LR (modern) courtesy #2 daughter.

French musket, 1766 pattern, 69 cal flintlock

My suggestion to you is: attend a few re-enactments, talk to the re-enactors, handle the guns. Try not to get too caught up in pedantic details. For example, what we now call the frizzen was called the "hammer" back in the 18th century, the flint & hammer was called the "cock". A lot of purists really get wrapped around the axle about this detail.

Get some hands-on range time if possible (this is what I do). The first observation is each one has a unique personality, or set of various operating variables. The obvious one is the tendency to throw a lot of sparks, or the lack thereof. Getting a flinch-lock to fire reliably requires a little more effort and patience than today's firearms, but it -can- be done. I had the pleasure of working with Larry Pletcher (link), the founder of BlackPowderMag.com and producer of these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgVnH6uEP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AKcXbPX-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9uC8TC8aA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKxKXtkPzE

Your gun can spark like these with enough effort!

Think about what you'd really like to do with your musket, and plan accordingly. If you -ever- plan on firing it, get a decent quality gun. You can save by purchasing a used musket from a re-enactor. The Denix guns are trinkets, and you'll never get your money out of it. I bought my British musket new with the bayonet for $515 delivered, and it was a Pedersoli. They're twice that now. I can sell mine used for more than what I actually paid for it.

Originally Posted by Poonie

I beg to differ here. I once saw a man at our range firing a replica Brown Bess at a sillouette target 100 yards away,... I'm sure combined with his patching and technique had something to do with it. ...

Indeed! It had everything to do with his results. Quite a number of shooters have greatly improved musket accuracy using the technique you described, it's well documented on the muzzleloading forum (link).

However, he also wasn't using it under the same conditions it was designed for. The musket balls were intentionally undersize, sometimes as much as 0.015" -- 0.020". With this much clearance, the ball will literally (audibly) rattle inside the barrel. They were designed this way so that the soldiers could still load the muskets even with heavy deposits of black powder residue in the barrel from previous firing. The direction the ball leaves has a lot to do with the last object it touches as it leaves the barrel. It will tend to fly randomly when fired from a loose barrel, but a patch holds it uniformly centered in the barrel. But, a patch takes clearance and may require a little extra barrel sanitation. Not a problem today, but could have been a deadly delay 200+ years ago. Think of this as the inspiration for the AK design philosophy - excess clearances sometimes translates to better reliability.