What to do with PSP registered ar-15 lower?

[ungawa]

Originally Posted by dc dalton

Good luck with that. We are having almost the same exact discussion in the AK receiver thread I started.

Do you have an answer to the last question I posed in that thread this morning? I didn't know FFLs submitted paperwork to anybody for rifle purchases. It's important to me to get the answer to this question. I am dumbfounded.

[GunLawyer001]

I should probably just cut & paste these every time, but the short story is this: Legally, there are handguns. And there are rifles & shotguns. And there are stripped, virgin receivers, which are neither handguns, rifles, nor shotguns.

Some of the laws that FFL's labor under apply to "handguns", and some apply to "all firearms except rifles or shotguns". Your stripped, virgin receiver is a firearm, but it's not a rifle or shotgun under the law, so that means that IF you have to fill out a form for any firearm "other than a rifle or shotgun", then you have to fill it out for a stripped, virgin receiver. Just because you fill out a particular form for all pistols, doesn't mean that you're "registering" your receiver as a pistol when you fill out that form. I use a credit card to buy gas; if I use it to buy milk, that doesn't turn the milk into gas, I just happened to use the same card for a different purpose.

The paper trail for a receiver shouldn't include any barrel length, so there's nothing that says you turned your pistol into a rifle (Even if you did, that's perfectly legal. You just can't turn it back into a pistol.)

As for this crap applying to complete rifles, I'd expect that to either be abandoned by the PSP, or shot down in any legitimate court of law, because a complete rifle is obviously a "rifle". It is NOT a "firearm other than a rifle". It doesn't matter whether it physically could be turned into a handgun, that would be a felony, so there's no need to close up any non-existent loophole. Prohibited persons aren't buying AR-15's at dealers so that they can make a handgun, they aren't buying ANYTHING at dealers, because, well, they're prohibited persons.

[Guns4Fun]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

I should probably just cut & paste these every time, but the short story is this: Legally, there are handguns. And there are rifles & shotguns. And there are stripped, virgin receivers, which are neither handguns, rifles, nor shotguns.

Some of the laws that FFL's labor under apply to "handguns", and some apply to "all firearms except rifles or shotguns". Your stripped, virgin receiver is a firearm, but it's not a rifle or shotgun under the law, so that means that IF you have to fill out a form for any firearm "other than a rifle or shotgun", then you have to fill it out for a stripped, virgin receiver. Just because you fill out a particular form for all pistols, doesn't mean that you're "registering" your receiver as a pistol when you fill out that form. I use a credit card to buy gas; if I use it to buy milk, that doesn't turn the milk into gas, I just happened to use the same card for a different purpose.
The paper trail for a receiver shouldn't include any barrel length, so there's nothing that says you turned your pistol into a rifle (Even if you did, that's perfectly legal. You just can't turn it back into a pistol.)

As for this crap applying to complete rifles, I'd expect that to either be abandoned by the PSP, or shot down in any legitimate court of law, because a complete rifle is obviously a "rifle". It is NOT a "firearm other than a rifle". It doesn't matter whether it physically could be turned into a handgun, that would be a felony, so there's no need to close up any non-existent loophole. Prohibited persons aren't buying AR-15's at dealers so that they can make a handgun, they aren't buying ANYTHING at dealers, because, well, they're prohibited persons.

That isn't the point - at least not for me. The point is that when you buy a rifle on a 4473 the 4473 stays with the dealer (or at least that is how I understood it - but ungawa brought up a valid point that has not been answered yet). When you fill out the handgun paperwork that paperwork is sent to the PSP and is now in their non registration data base. The PSP is over stepping their power and are now able to collect additional data on lowers for their non registration data base.

[Guns4Fun]

Originally Posted by ungawa

Do you have an answer to the last question I posed in that thread this morning? I didn't know FFLs submitted paperwork to anybody for rifle purchases. It's important to me to get the answer to this question. I am dumbfounded.

I would also like the answer to how the PSP knew there was a sale on a lower. I wonder if it has anything to do with the new electronic 4473 that can be filled out on line by ffl's. I wonder if that software is collecting info on the 4473's that agencies can see.

The only other thing I can come up with is that somehow the FFL in question mysteriously got a visit from the ATF / PSP to review their records and noticed that there wasn't a handgun form for the 4473 lower sale.

Because I like you always thought that all 4473's stayed with the FFL and the ATF could only look at them in the shop and not remove them from the FFL's location. Maybe I'm wrong?

[Kenshin]

Ok so Agent Ronin here called Sam Rohrer's office to figure out exactly what is going on from the PSP. He got 3 calls back from his office so far and I can't confirm this for sure, he's on vacation now(Ronin), but I believe Sam's office is looking into this. I'll have to talk to him when hes back from vacation and have him post what hes gotten back from Sam's office then. Hopefully this will get the ball rolling.

[dc dalton]

Originally Posted by ungawa

Do you have an answer to the last question I posed in that thread this morning? I didn't know FFLs submitted paperwork to anybody for rifle purchases. It's important to me to get the answer to this question. I am dumbfounded.

I will try and get an answer on this in the next few days.

[archangel689]

fact of the matter is they can use this to force you to fill out pistol paperwork on any rifle.

If it can be cut down.....I assume this is what they're going to do...

For instance an MR556 is not ar-15, but they are similar enough that I'm afraid to buy one now. How do I know this pistol bullshit isn't going to happen?

How do I know this isn't going to happen with an Fal or m1a carbine? Why isn't this all over the front page of the site? pretty soon the only thing you'll be able to get is a bolt action rifle and not have to fill out pistol paperwork.

I am surprised that no one was massively angered earlier by this.

[Guns4Fun]

Originally Posted by archangel689

fact of the matter is they can use this to force you to fill out pistol paperwork on any rifle.

If it can be cut down.....I assume this is what they're going to do...

For instance an MR556 is not ar-15, but they are similar enough that I'm afraid to buy one now. How do I know this pistol bullshit isn't going to happen?

How do I know this isn't going to happen with an Fal or m1a carbine? Why isn't this all over the front page of the site? pretty soon the only thing you'll be able to get is a bolt action rifle and not have to fill out pistol paperwork.

I am surprised that no one was massively angered earlier by this.

Oh, I think everyone is massively angered by this. However, it is just hard to figure out what to do to correct it. The poster above said someone was in contact with Sam Rohrer's office. I'm waiting to hear the reply. The PSP is in fact breaking the law by forcing FFL's to do this. But, the FFL's are too worried about being put out of biz to speak up about it because the PSP is threatening to deny them PICS access. So, I think it is going to take a group of gun owners / concerned citizens to fix it. But again, I’m not sure how to do it yet.

[archangel689]

They can't shut down all the FFLs, if you get enough of them together in agreement then it becomes a lot harder for psp to shut them all down.

You think they'll shut down 100 FFLs at once?

[Guns4Fun]

Originally Posted by archangel689

They can't shut down all the FFLs, if you get enough of them together in agreement then it becomes a lot harder for psp to shut them all down.

You think they'll shut down 100 FFLs at once?

If you provide for your family with your FFL do you want to be the 10 out of 100 that they do fuck with?

I can't really blame the FFL holders. They are being strong armed into complying.