What to do with PSP registered ar-15 lower?

[dc dalton]

Originally Posted by General Geoff

There IS NO REGISTRATION.


The database they maintain is simply a handgun purchase database. They CANNOT, repeat, CANNOT use it as a registry for any legal purposes, including prosecuting a person for selling a rifle made from a receiver which happened to have a handgun purchase form filled out for its original transfer to a private citizen. Since it was not a handgun when you sold it, there was no reason (legal or otherwise) to fill out a handgun transfer/purchase form when you sold it. THEY would have to prove that you sold an AR PISTOL without the proper papers.


Obligatory "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer.

I'd HATE to fight that in a court of law!

[General Geoff]

There's already case law on it. The only reason the database EXISTS is because the PSP maintained, in court, that it is NOT a registry. They can't have it both ways. The moment they insist it IS a registry, it is illegal and thus nullified.

[clarion44]

I stopped in Gander Mtn today and attached to each price tag on the ARs was a lil note saying to purchase the rifle you had to be a PA resident, be 21 years old, and fill out a pistol form. I wanted to say something, but I know they wouldn't have listened.


Edit: 21 yo, not 18

[Xringshooter]

Here is what the BATFE says (this is in the NOTICES, INSTRUCTIONS AND DEFINITIONS section of a ATF Form 4473, Revised August 2008):

This is a direct quote.

Section B
Question 18. Type of Firerarm(s): Check all boxes that apply. "other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either hanguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or Nation Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver, not a handgun or long gun. However, they are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames and receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip firearms, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(a).

Pay particular attention to the last line (my bold). As you can see, the BATFE does not consider them handguns. BATFE Multiple Sales Forms are only filled out for handguns. This is where our argument with the PSP lays. The SP4-113 should not be filled out for receivers as they are not handguns, SBRs or SBSs. Even the BATFE agrees.

Actually, at this time, there is nothing written that directs FFL's to do this. I have not received any communication from the PSP Firearms Division directing me to do this. What I have heard is that some FFL's have be told, verbally, by people OTHER than the Firearms Division to do this. Unless it is from the office of the Firearms Division, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have to abide by it (and I don't).

[Seneca Arms Co. Inc.]

I was told by Trooper Anderson of the firearms unit that any frame that can be made in to a handgun requires a white form.

[archangel689]

In short, anderson can go f**k himself. It's about time we did something about this. I'm selling it. can I sell it to an ffl and they will fill pistol paper work? will that take it out of my name?

I'll be finding a shop that doesn't do this baloney to transfer my future weapons

[Contract]

Last week I had an AR lower shipped to my FFL, (2) PSP came in and informed the FFL that all AR15 lowers, and AR15s must be put on the 4473 and the handgun form, because they COULD be made into a pistol ! also must be 21 to buy, since it COULD be made into a pistol !

So I asked is it then a pistol since its on the pistol form and they said , no, but since it COULD be made into a pistol it MUST be on both forms........WTF ?

They also told my FFL to put N/A in the barrel length section on the white form. And the one PSP also said " You know if you make that into a rifle, and then sell that, you could be charged with building a firearm with out a license" .(FFL).

So my FFL even aske the lady on the phone for the pics check, she said the same thing and also said ,no white form, no sale, no transfer to me !!



WTF??????????? WTF????????????

[Seneca Arms Co. Inc.]

Gun owners in this state are going to have to get organized if they want to put an end to this nonsense. Bitching at your local gun shop owner is going to do NOTHING. We need to establish an oversight committee or organization that speaks for PA gun owner’s rights to Harrisburg.

[dc dalton]

Originally Posted by archangel689

I'll be finding a shop that doesn't do this baloney to transfer my future weapons

Good luck with that. We are having almost the same exact discussion in the AK receiver thread I started. One FFL has chimed in over there (Seneca Arms) and I have talked to two FFLs I am friends with and the story is the same over and over.

This explanation is going to be a bit long but I trust well worth reading. It is EXACTLY what I was told from two different FFLs, they do not know each other nor did they know I was talking to both of them.

What PSP has done here has been to FORCE FFLs to do something that is in fact illegal, making them fill out paperwork on receivers that are not pistols. Now why are these dealers 'bowing down' to the will of PSP? It's simple, PSP has the ability to shut their business down for the smallest irregularity. Paperwork a day late? Shut off their PICS id, PICS check late? same thing, they can go over your paperwork with a fine tooth comb and if anything seems out of place they shut your PICS down. Paperwork and payment perfect? They can (and will) send in a stooge and try and trap you on some obscure law and (again) shut you down.

Dealer #1 (neither want me to use their name) sold an AR receiver using only the normal form a while back. Within days of him sending it in it was rejected and he was told he MUST send a certified letter to the person that bought it and he MUST get the pistol paperwork to them in 15 days or his PIC id would be shut down.

Dealer #2 was specifically told when he called to ask about it either he did the pistol paperwork or he was in danger of losing his PICS id. He asked the question many here have asked "If this receiver is sold as a pistol and the person builds a rifle and then sells it FTF within the state are they breaking the law?" PICS supervisor told him they have no answer to that question and that he was not the first one to ask it.

So it's NOT the dealers! What we have he is PSP firearms department overstepping their bounds again BUT (and here's the interesting part) they learned their lesson after the Supreme court bitch slapped them for "keeping a registry" (for anyone that knows after they lost that they then FORCED dealers to keep their records for an ungodly length of time ... hence PSP was not in violation of the law, the FORCED the dealers to break the law for them)

Now they are doing the same thing again, they are FORCING dealers to break the law by 'registering' these receivers ..... but again PSP is not breaking the law, the dealers are and if the dealers don't do it PSP starts fucking with them and more than likely they will find some stupid obscure thing to shut the poor guy down. Take away a dealers PICS id and you put them out of business instantly!

So what's the answer? I mentioned to dealer #1 that what I thought had to happen was a group of dealers had to sue PSP for forcing them to break the law, bringing the whole thing in front of the court for a ruling. He laughed and said "Yeah right" when I asked why he told me there's no way in hell dealers are going to risk have PSP firearms "up their ass and watching for any irregularity" and the chance of them losing their PICS as "retribution".

So there you have it .... we have a state agency that has the dealers by the balls and they know it. They know if THEY break the law their asses will be in front of the Supreme Court in the blink of an eye so they threaten and badger the dealers to break the law. The dealers either do it or they get a pissed off agency, an agency that has the power to put them out of business, watching for every t to be crossed, every i to be dotted ... OR ELSE.


So before ANY of you begin calling dealers assholes you had better think twice, pay attention and realize they have no choice in the matter. Think about what YOU would do if your livelihood was at the mercy of an agency that really has NO oversight!

If this is to be fought in a court battle, or in Harrisburg it is going to have to be gun owners that get it stopped.

[son of the revolution]

What about getting the NRA , GOA or other " big dogs " involved ?? Seems to me a tailor made case of massive " oppression under the color of authority " . I cant imagine , as much as the NRA has been fighting in PA lately , that they would let this issue fly if they knew about it . Its a great PR issue for them . They get to hold out the PSP as oppresively coercing Federally Licensed Dealers to break the law , under threat of shutting down their business operations on trumped charges . This has GOT to be a peek behind the curtain of how the grabbers plan to implement a massive AWB and confiscation ! Remember what Diane Feinstein said back in the Nineties about how she would have banned them all and had them confiscated if she could have ??

Im feeling really bad juju that this is how their compiling their lists to implement it . They get them " registered " as pistols , then they claim that " hi capacity " pistols " are the scourge of society and they need to go .

They know that the general public for the most part has seen through the bullshit and nonsense of " Assault Weapons " so they redefine the issue as them being "pistols " and presto !

Bad vibes for sure !! Call me paranoid if you will , but this issue should be a huge flashing neon sign that " Something wicked this way comes " !

Wheres Kim Stolfer in this ??