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Old June 28th, 2009, 09:32 PM
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Default Tannerite... Legal?

On a recent trip to the range I had the chance to see this stuff in action. I have considered getting some, now that I have seen it I want it.

Is this stuff really legal. I have been to the website and read their disclaimer: from http://www.tannerite.com/

WHY IS TANNERITE™ LEGAL? Answer: Manufacturing is a commerce issue governed by the feds. Page 58 CFR 5400.7 General Q&A Section, new edition: #36. When is a Federal manufacturing license required? "A manufacturer's license is needed ONLY by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosives materials for SALE, DISTRIBUTION, or for BUSINESS use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, NON-commercial use would not need a license."

Furthermore, when you are mixing Tannerite™, you are manufacturing a black powder, although a much safer and stable black powder, Tannerite™ has a faster burn rate. Black powder is a regulated explosive, but is exempt IF USED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES IN CONJUNCTION WITH SPORTING ARMS. It is important to note that although Federal law allows a person to possess up to 50 lbs of powder, most states have lesser limits on possession amounts. Therefore it's important not to mix more powder at one time than is allowed by your state or local laws.

The above is the law of the land on the use of Tannerite™. We feel that it is important to note that in some situations, a person may be in violation and not know it. Such a situation is when a range mixes Tannerite™ and then charges a fee to shoot it. In this situation, IF the shooter is paying the range owner any kind of reimbursement, renumeration, etc, it is "possible" that the range would be required to be licensed. Thus far, we aren't aware of this being enforced (Using Knob Creek Range as an example, they have been told that they do not need a license to mix Tannerite™ for the line shooters). All things are subject to change, and we will keep the public informed of any new changes in law. Some states claim that the L&I (labor and Industry dept) or other agencies have authority to regulate Tannerite™. This is simply not the case if the shooter is using the targets for personal use.


It seems to me that using this stuff would be no different than making a pipe bomb set to go off on command rather than a fuze. (obviously you have to be good enough to hit the canister but you get my point) Since my experience with the stuff, I want to buy some. I like making stuff go BOOM and the Army pays me to do it a couple of times a year. I wouldn't want to risk prison just to have a little fun on the weekends.

In Pa they can sell fireworks that are illegal for Pa residents, wouldn't this be the same thing?

My question is wouldn't using this stuff as advertised be classified as a destructive device? Or more likely perceived to be a destructive device if a LEO happened to visit?

Thoughts?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old June 28th, 2009, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReconLdr View Post
On a recent trip to the range I had the chance to see this stuff in action. I have considered getting some, now that I have seen it I want it.

Is this stuff really legal. I have been to the website and read their disclaimer: from http://www.tannerite.com/

WHY IS TANNERITE™ LEGAL? Answer: Manufacturing is a commerce issue governed by the feds. Page 58 CFR 5400.7 General Q&A Section, new edition: #36. When is a Federal manufacturing license required? "A manufacturer's license is needed ONLY by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosives materials for SALE, DISTRIBUTION, or for BUSINESS use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, NON-commercial use would not need a license."

Furthermore, when you are mixing Tannerite™, you are manufacturing a black powder, although a much safer and stable black powder, Tannerite™ has a faster burn rate. Black powder is a regulated explosive, but is exempt IF USED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES IN CONJUNCTION WITH SPORTING ARMS. It is important to note that although Federal law allows a person to possess up to 50 lbs of powder, most states have lesser limits on possession amounts. Therefore it's important not to mix more powder at one time than is allowed by your state or local laws.

The above is the law of the land on the use of Tannerite™. We feel that it is important to note that in some situations, a person may be in violation and not know it. Such a situation is when a range mixes Tannerite™ and then charges a fee to shoot it. In this situation, IF the shooter is paying the range owner any kind of reimbursement, renumeration, etc, it is "possible" that the range would be required to be licensed. Thus far, we aren't aware of this being enforced (Using Knob Creek Range as an example, they have been told that they do not need a license to mix Tannerite™ for the line shooters). All things are subject to change, and we will keep the public informed of any new changes in law. Some states claim that the L&I (labor and Industry dept) or other agencies have authority to regulate Tannerite™. This is simply not the case if the shooter is using the targets for personal use.


It seems to me that using this stuff would be no different than making a pipe bomb set to go off on command rather than a fuze. (obviously you have to be good enough to hit the canister but you get my point) Since my experience with the stuff, I want to buy some. I like making stuff go BOOM and the Army pays me to do it a couple of times a year. I wouldn't want to risk prison just to have a little fun on the weekends.

In Pa they can sell fireworks that are illegal for Pa residents, wouldn't this be the same thing?

My question is wouldn't using this stuff as advertised be classified as a destructive device? Or more likely perceived to be a destructive device if a LEO happened to visit?

Thoughts?
The important part with tannerite is that you mix it WHEN YOU USE IT. If you mix it then store the mixed product, you may be violating a few laws. Otherwise, until you mix it you don't have an explosive. This would fall under the same category as manufacturing your own fireworks, which is perfectly legal. You can't transport them, you shouldn't store them (unless you have appropriate storage means, which you probably don't), but you can make your own.

Last edited by Helter; June 28th, 2009 at 11:11 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helter View Post
This would fall under the same category as manufacturing your own fireworks, which is perfectly legal.
That's interesting. Not that I'd want to. How did you come to this conclusion?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

I think the "black powder" comparison is bunk because a search of the ATF FELR book for the word "sporting" reveals this full quote each time:

"in quantities of 50 pounds or less to a nonlicensee or nonpermittee if
the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting,
recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in
18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16), or in antique devices as exempted from the
term “destructive device” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4)."

Tannerite is not put into antique firearms.

But, I have also seen Tannerite defend their product with this:

Page 64 Question 37: "Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal,
non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s
license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be
transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person
holds a license or permit. [27 CFR 555.11: definition of “manufacturer”,
555.41(b)]"

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexpl...tion/index.htm

I looked at the state laws once and it seemed a little confusing. I also can't find them at the moment. I am not a lawyer and cannot give legal advice and it would be hard for me to do so anyway since I haven't come to a conclusion on this topic. I don't think I've ever seen anyone give a comprehensive argument as to why it is legal under both federal and state law. Then again, OC is legal under state law simply because there is no prohibition against it (not sure if it's the same with tannerite or not). And the ATF hasn't shut down Tannerite and I'd think they would if they could.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

I do believe you are clear under federal law to possess, mix, and use tannerite in certain situations for effects and small pyrotechnics. However there does come a point when it becomes a destructive device.

Under PA's 18 Pa.C.S. § 908, you might be ok so long as it isn't a part of a "device", just powder alone.

Under PA's 35 Pa.C.S., Ch13A - you might be screwed without a license.



Quote:
§ 1271. Definitions

The term "consumer fireworks" shall mean and include:

(1) Any combustible or explosive composition or any substance or combination of substances intended to produce visible and/or audible effects by combustion and which is suitable for use by the public that complies with the construction, performance, composition and labeling requirements promulgated by the Consumer Products Safety Commission in 16 CFR (relating to commercial practices) or any successor regulation and which complies with the provisions for "consumer fireworks" as defined in the American Pyrotechnics Association (APA) Standard 87-1, or any successor standard.


(2) The term does not include devices as "ground and hand-held sparkling devices," "novelties" and "toy caps" in APA Standard 87-1, the sale, possession and use of which shall be permitted at all times throughout this Commonwealth.


§ 1275. Sale, possession and use of fireworks

Nothing in this act shall be construed to prohibit any licensed facility from selling any consumer fireworks or the year-round sale of any kind of consumer fireworks to out-of-State residents whose status is verified to the licensee, provided the licensee retains proof of such status and produces it for review upon request of the Department of Agriculture and provided the same are to be transported directly out of state by the seller or purchaser. Consumer fireworks and display fireworks may be possessed and used by a person holding a permit from any municipality at the display covered by such permit, or when used as authorized by a permit for agricultural purposes in connection with the raising of crops and the protection of crops from bird and animal damage, or the use by railroads or other transportation agencies for signal purposes or illumination, or when used in quarrying or for blasting or other industrial use, or the sale or use of blank cartridges for a show or theatre, or for signal or ceremonial purposes in athletics or sports, or for use by military organizations or organizations composed of veterans of the United States Army or Navy. No such permit shall be issued to a person younger than eighteen (18) years of age.

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Old June 29th, 2009, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
That's interesting. Not that I'd want to. How did you come to this conclusion?
One of the many masks I wear is that of a professional pyrotechnician. Local laws apply of course, so it may not be legal in your area, but from a federal standpoint it's fine (or at least, that's the general consensus in the amateur pyro community, and of course it depends on what type of device you're making).
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Old June 29th, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helter View Post
One of the many masks I wear is that of a professional pyrotechnician. Local laws apply of course, so it may not be legal in your area, but from a federal standpoint it's fine (or at least, that's the general consensus in the amateur pyro community, and of course it depends on what type of device you're making).
Do you know anything about the legality of making your own fireworks in PA? Again, I have no intention of doing so. I just think it might be analogous to the tannerite question.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Tannerite... Legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
Under PA's 35 Pa.C.S., Ch13A - you might be screwed without a license.
Quote:
§ 1271. Definitions

The term "consumer fireworks" shall mean and include:

(1) Any combustible or explosive composition or any substance or combination of substances intended to produce visible and/or audible effects by combustion and which is suitable for use by the public that complies with the construction, performance, composition and labeling requirements promulgated by the Consumer Products Safety Commission in 16 CFR (relating to commercial practices) or any successor regulation and which complies with the provisions for "consumer fireworks" as defined in the American Pyrotechnics Association (APA) Standard 87-1, or any successor standard.
I can't find a copy of this standard but I have a feeling tannerite is probably not included in the "consumer fireworks" definition in PA.
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