AAR: Trident Concepts - Combative Pistol 1

[zoom]

First, I'll start with a little background on myself. I have taken three different classes with Suarez International and one class with John Farnam (DTI). I was hesitant at first about taking this class as it seemed to be geared to novices. I conversed with the instructor, Jeff Gonzalas, by email before signing up for the class. The main thing I took away from our conversations was that this class was actually geared more toward law enforcement/military than your standard civilian. For example, he required that everyone have either a duty holster or an open holster. I normally carry in an appendix rig but I also have a Comp-Tac M-Tac. He didn't want me to use the appendix rig but he said that if I tucked my shirt behind the M-Tac that it would be fine. I was again hesitant to sign up since it seemed very basic but I figured I would roll the dice, so I signed up for the class.

(If you haven’t already figured it out, the ‘Trident’ in the name of the company refers to the Navy SEAL emblem, which both Jeff and his buddy Dan have earned.)

Day 1

There were seventeen people in the class. I was surprised to see that about half were actually LEO/military as all of the other classes I had taken they were in the small minority. This was also the only class I had taken that actually started with a test. We began at 25 yards and moved in to 3 yards. Both the center mass and the face of the targets had circles around them*. Each shot outside the circle was consider a miss since you shot something you were not aiming for. Jeff even said that most people dismiss this type of training based simply on statistics. He said that is basically rolling the dice on a gun fight. All of those people had to shoot at inside of 7 yards but what is to say that that will apply to you? He further went on to say that shooting up close is easy. Your errors can be easily hidden up close but at distance they will result in misses.
We started the day at 25 yards. That was the farthest I have ever shot (with a Glock 26 mind you) at the range and that was just for fun. The first command was two shots to the chest. Then we moved closer; 15 yards. All the way up to 3 yards. All of the misses were recorded. I actually did pretty well; only two misses.

We did various drills throughout the day and Jeff, and his coinstructor Dan were watching everyone and checking the targets to see where you could improve. Sometimes, like in my case, he couldn't figure out the problem so he asked me what I thought was the problem. I said I thought I was squeezing my fingers when pulling the trigger. He said he did notice me regripping the gun after each shot so he showed me the best grip out the of the holster to prevent that. The whole point of firing at long distance, as Jeff said, is to make the small problems out to be big problems because in a gunfight the bad guy is not going to stand there while you line up your sights and pull the trigger. He reiterated that most LEOs only have a 25% hit accuracy in real combat situations. Therefore, it is best to train for the worst. That is actually part of the reason I became interested in this course in the first place.

Day 2


We started out with dry fire practice mixed with live fire; at 25 yards of course. This was mainly done to reduce flinching. Then we mixed it up; drawing from the holster, including a dummy round in the magazine, doing a failure drill, and even a reverse failure drill. Jeff said the only reason we even did the failure drill was to teach us to move the focus to a different part of the body. We did various drills throughout the day all ranging from 3 yards all the way out to 25 yards.

A lot of people complain that he teaches 'crab walking' but realistically you aren't going to clear a whole city while doing that. It is done for CQB and it has been tried and tested in combat. The fact that it works in the worst of situations is proof enough for me. For the final test in order to get the certificate he said that 5 out of the 17 did not pass and that is an actually an unusually small number. Those that failed are actually allowed to retake the test within one year for no cost. That isn't too difficult since Jeff travels a lot.

All in all, I am very glad I took this course. I learned a great deal from it. I dare say I learned more from this course than all of the other courses combined. The class requires 1500 rounds which is a lot given the current supply/demand but I truly feel it was worth it. I never felt we were just firing to send ammo down range. There was always a purpose.

An important thing to point out is if you look on his website you will notice that a lot of the courses are listed as 'restricted' meaning it is limited to LEO/military. Jeff said for the most part this is because of the host locations are requiring it. His new knife class is set to debut in Allentown, but it is also restricted. He tried to get me in but, unfortunately, the host facility would not allow it due to liability reasons.

One thing I would change if I were to take one of Jeff's classes again is I would get an OWB holster. The M-Tac was to much a distraction with having to worry about whether I grabbed my shirt while drawing or if it was untucked while going back into to the holster which would interfere with reholstering.




*Here is a link to the target we used:

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=TCT-05

[synergy]

Glad to hear it was a good experience!

For Jeff's test, was there a time/ accuracy standard that you had to pass? You mentioned that a few participants didn't "pass" so I'm curious what the evaluation criteria were.

Thanks!

[jpavoncello]

Great AAR, good to hear you are spending the time (and money) to be more proficient with you firearms. I gotta hit on a couple things, though, gonna play devil's advocate if I may.

While I'm all for people getting training, I find it sad that so many courses waste the time and ammo to train outside realistic combat distances. Statistically you and I will never be in a gun fight at distances over 7 yards. We all know that most occur inside of 5-7 feet. So why bother shooting at 25? I know your instructor made a point about mistakes being easier to spot at range, but really, at actual combat distances it won't make a difference if you are slapping the trigger, healing, flinching, etc, etc.

I also understand why your instructor requested a duty or open top holster if the class was only for LEO or Military, but why would you want to train with a holster you will never use for concealed carry? I train out of the same gear I use every day. Sure I have a Serpa for my full sized gun that I use for matches and fun shoots, but for training, I use my carry gun and the belt, IWB holster setup that I use every day. If you haven't practiced lifting your shirt or swinging back your jacket to get a clean master grip and draw, what do you think will happen under the stress of an actual incident?

Lastly, 1500 rounds is a lot of ammo. I know you said you didn't feel you were just sending rounds downrange but, that is a ton of ammo over two days. How did your hands and forearms feel after all that? How about your wallet?
The last course I took part in was 4 hours. I expended about 40 rounds of ammo and it was by far the most productive course I have taken to date for combative pistol shooting. I won't even consider taking a course that requires 1000 round or more, IMHO it is counter productive to shoot that much in a training session. As much as I love to shoot, I can't even do that on a fun day at the range.

Like I said at the beginning, I'm just pointing out my view on this type of training. I'm happy when anyone does things to better themselves.
I'll end with a quote from my buddy Mercop "The basics done well are what makes you advanced."

[synergy]

While I'm all for people getting training, I find it sad that so many courses waste the time and ammo to train outside realistic combat distances. Statistically you and I will never be in a gun fight at distances over 7 yards. We all know that most occur inside of 5-7 feet. So why bother shooting at 25? I know your instructor made a point about mistakes being easier to spot at range, but really, at actual combat distances it won't make a difference if you are slapping the trigger, healing, flinching, etc, etc.

So then, why bother to ever learn the fundamentals? Why put sights on the pistol?

25yards is not unrealistic for pistol shooting. Under stress, you're ability to hit accurately will go down the tubes. If you train surgical accuracy, even when it deteriorates you'll still be able to get good hits.

Don't forget pistol bullets don't knock folks over, or incapacitate with any torso hit....you need to be able to hit the CNS to take the fight out of some threats.

If you never train past 10 yards, you're setting yourself up for failure, IMO.

[zoom]

Glad to hear it was a good experience!

For Jeff's test, was there a time/ accuracy standard that you had to pass? You mentioned that a few participants didn't "pass" so I'm curious what the evaluation criteria were.

Thanks!

We had to fire 25 shots with one dummy round thrown in the mix. The test started at the 25 yards and we progressed all the way up to the 3 yard line. It was mostly two handed shooting but we also did one hand as well. The required score was at least 70%. So that allows for about six misses, meaning outside the circles. Any hit in the white results in a failure. He said there was a time limit but I didn't hear him mention it after we started the test.

[zoom]

While I'm all for people getting training, I find it sad that so many courses waste the time and ammo to train outside realistic combat distances. Statistically you and I will never be in a gun fight at distances over 7 yards. We all know that most occur inside of 5-7 feet. So why bother shooting at 25? I know your instructor made a point about mistakes being easier to spot at range, but really, at actual combat distances it won't make a difference if you are slapping the trigger, healing, flinching, etc, etc.

As I said, Jeff went over the reasoning for this. Just training up close your basing your training on the odds.

But part of the reason is also, as synergy said, so you can shoot accurately under stress. Just because you can shoot an one inch group at 7 yards all day long doesn't mean you are going to shoot that well when someone is trying to kill you.

Jeff said there aren't to many was to induce stress on the firing line. The best you can do is use a timer or an elimination match. He said when he trains military units a miss results in pain. Normally, in the form of PT. To be honest I was a little disappointed we weren't doing that.

I also understand why your instructor requested a duty or open top holster if the class was only for LEO or Military, but why would you want to train with a holster you will never use for concealed carry? I train out of the same gear I use every day. Sure I have a Serpa for my full sized gun that I use for matches and fun shoots, but for training, I use my carry gun and the belt, IWB holster setup that I use every day. If you haven't practiced lifting your shirt or swinging back your jacket to get a clean master grip and draw, what do you think will happen under the stress of an actual incident?

At first, hearing that it was open holster only made me hesitant to sign up. But I figured I had practiced and trained from concealment plenty of times so I was not too worried about missing out on that. I think the reason he did that was so that everyone was one the same page. During the class Jeff and Dan both wore full size 2.5" combat belts with a drop leg holster, several spare mags, an M4 mag, a knife, a flash light, and a dump pouch. When we went out to lunch Jeff just carried his Glock in a standard Comp-Tac IWB holster. Of course, I was actually hoping to see him open carry all of that gear around town.

Lastly, 1500 rounds is a lot of ammo. I know you said you didn't feel you were just sending rounds downrange but, that is a ton of ammo over two days.

I already had enough ammo on hand but the main problem was finding more. I started a post in the Delaware County forum asking if anyone knew where to find ammo locally. Luckily, the local range had a good deal on it.

How did your hands and forearms feel after all that? How about your wallet?
The last course I took part in was 4 hours. I expended about 40 rounds of ammo and it was by far the most productive course I have taken to date for combative pistol shooting. I won't even consider taking a course that requires 1000 round or more, IMHO it is counter productive to shoot that much in a training session. As much as I love to shoot, I can't even do that on a fun day at the range.

The Glock frame isn't the most comfortable gun to fire after several hundred rounds. By the second day most guys had a band aid or two on their fingers, myself included. Jeff actually recommends on the gear list that you bring band aides.

I don't doubt you can get good training in just one box of ammo, or less in your case. But, I have to wonder how good is it. Good enough? Does it teach you only to hit center mass or can you make a head shoot while moving? How about engaging multiple threats? What about searching for additional threats? And was it at all stressful?

He also explained that pistol rounds are poor man stoppers. So it will probably be necessary to fire several rounds at the target. Accurately. So many of the drills required three shots to the chest. He went on to say that many shooters are good at firing the first and sometimes even the second shot but things like poor grip, which was my problem, can result in slow followup shots or misses.

[dgg9]

While I'm all for people getting training, I find it sad that so many courses waste the time and ammo to train outside realistic combat distances. Statistically you and I will never be in a gun fight at distances over 7 yards. We all know that most occur inside of 5-7 feet. So why bother shooting at 25?

The main reason is that Jeff's classes are always a mix of CCW holder, LE patrolman, and one or two SWAT guys in each class. The class is not really defined as being only for private citizen gun owners.

[dgg9]

When we went out to lunch Jeff just carried his Glock in a standard Comp-Tac IWB holster.

That surprises me -- he's always been a 1911 guy, up to and including the last time I took the CP1 class, maybe 3 yrs ago.

[Philadelphia]

I've taken this course too and have some thoughts to respond to your (good) questions.

Great AAR, good to hear you are spending the time (and money) to be more proficient with you firearms. I gotta hit on a couple things, though, gonna play devil's advocate if I may.

While I'm all for people getting training, I find it sad that so many courses waste the time and ammo to train outside realistic combat distances. Statistically you and I will never be in a gun fight at distances over 7 yards. We all know that most occur inside of 5-7 feet. So why bother shooting at 25? I know your instructor made a point about mistakes being easier to spot at range, but really, at actual combat distances it won't make a difference if you are slapping the trigger, healing, flinching, etc, etc.

First, training isn't practice and vice versa. A few hundred rounds at the 25 yard line doesn't have you to shooting fast bulls all day at 25 yards if you didn't arrive pretty much already able to do that. What it does do is show your weaknesses and thus gives the information you need to correct them. If you are, say, always heeling but more than able to hit the target at 7 yards on a square range, what happens when the adrenaline flows -- you heel all your shots into the third floor of the building across the street as your target proceeds to kill you. If you're going to shoot, learn first to shoot. Try all of the distances at speed and spend the time it takes to get good at it (for example, developing what Enos has laid out as the 5 different focuses) and you will see what it does for you close in. More tools in the toolbox and vastly improved technique to boot.

I also understand why your instructor requested a duty or open top holster if the class was only for LEO or Military, but why would you want to train with a holster you will never use for concealed carry? I train out of the same gear I use every day. Sure I have a Serpa for my full sized gun that I use for matches and fun shoots, but for training, I use my carry gun and the belt, IWB holster setup that I use every day. If you haven't practiced lifting your shirt or swinging back your jacket to get a clean master grip and draw, what do you think will happen under the stress of an actual incident?

Again, training is not practice. There is a limited amount of time to train which you then take away with you to practice. If someone needs training on how to draw a gun from a retention or concealment holster, this is not the right course. Get the gun out and use it. Practice with the concealed holster at home.

Lastly, 1500 rounds is a lot of ammo. I know you said you didn't feel you were just sending rounds downrange but, that is a ton of ammo over two days. How did your hands and forearms feel after all that? How about your wallet?
The last course I took part in was 4 hours. I expended about 40 rounds of ammo and it was by far the most productive course I have taken to date for combative pistol shooting. I won't even consider taking a course that requires 1000 round or more, IMHO it is counter productive to shoot that much in a training session. As much as I love to shoot, I can't even do that on a fun day at the range.

Try a course like this and I think you will see that you get something from every round. Combat shooting is by its nature high round count shooting (as in every repetition of every drill always has multiple rounds). It adds up fast.

Like I said at the beginning, I'm just pointing out my view on this type of training. I'm happy when anyone does things to better themselves.
I'll end with a quote from my buddy Mercop "The basics done well are what makes you advanced."

I'd agree with the quote -- there's nothing more to shooting than aligning the sights and pulling the trigger without disturbing them. Learning to do that well and truely automatically can take a good while. I'd suggest that the true answer to all the questions is simply that in fighting, precise skill in shooting should never enter into the conscious mind -- if you have to think at all about the shooting you have less focus to use on the fighting. As you know, you should and will be thinking about what is going on around you and what to do about it (or OODA loop or however you want to say it). If you can't make the hits without some focus on the shooting you are dead because when it really counts you won't be thinking about it and you won't make the hits, or you'll end up standing still concentrating on making hits (and getting hit) when you should be moving. Mastering all of the exercises and drills taught in a course like this is a good start down that road of being able to make the hits and knowing that you can the same as you know you can write your own name. You don't have to worry about if you can because you just can.

[synergy]

I've taken this course too and have some thoughts to respond to your (good) questions.



First, training isn't practice and vice versa. A few hundred rounds at the 25 yard line doesn't have you to shooting fast bulls all day at 25 yards if you didn't arrive pretty much already able to do that. What it does do is show your weaknesses and thus gives the information you need to correct them. If you are, say, always heeling but more than able to hit the target at 7 yards on a square range, what happens when the adrenaline flows -- you heel all your shots into the third floor of the building across the street as your target proceeds to kill you. If you're going to shoot, learn first to shoot. Try all of the distances at speed and spend the time it takes to get good at it (for example, developing what Enos has laid out as the 5 different focuses) and you will see what it does for you close in. More tools in the toolbox and vastly improved technique to boot.



Again, training is not practice. There is a limited amount of time to train which you then take away with you to practice. If someone needs training on how to draw a gun from a retention or concealment holster, this is not the right course. Get the gun out and use it. Practice with the concealed holster at home.



Try a course like this and I think you will see that you get something from every round. Combat shooting is by its nature high round count shooting (as in every repetition of every drill always has multiple rounds). It adds up fast.



I'd agree with the quote -- there's nothing more to shooting than aligning the sights and pulling the trigger without disturbing them. Learning to do that well and truely automatically can take a good while. I'd suggest that the true answer to all the questions is simply that in fighting, precise skill in shooting should never enter into the conscious mind -- if you have to think at all about the shooting you have less focus to use on the fighting. As you know, you should and will be thinking about what is going on around you and what to do about it (or OODA loop or however you want to say it). If you can't make the hits without some focus on the shooting you are dead because when it really counts you won't be thinking about it and you won't make the hits, or you'll end up standing still concentrating on making hits (and getting hit) when you should be moving. Mastering all of the exercises and drills taught in a course like this is a good start down that road of being able to make the hits and knowing that you can the same as you know you can write your own name. You don't have to worry about if you can because you just can.

Some pretty good points being made there.

I think in general, you need to push your boundaries, and you need to train to be better than you think you actually need to be.

As stated, you need to achieve unconscious mastery of your skills, so your mind can focus on how to best use your environment, or where the threat is moving towards, etc. If you need to mentally go through your draw count or reload process in a gunfight, it probably wont end well.

It just comes down to the old saying "the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat." When you train to run 10 milies, 5 becomes easy. Train to move a hitting target, a stationary target becomes easy. Train to hit a small distant target, a big close target becomes easy. Knowing that you can perform tasks more difficult than you can reasonably expect to see also gives you a lot of confidence, and improves your combat mindset. It certainly improves your survivability.

I too think that round count is a little high, but it may be very appropriate. I've heard nothing but good things said about Jeff and his outfit. Every round should be positively re-enforcing your shooting. A lot of drills can EAT up ammo, fast. As long as the rounds were spent re-enforcing good habits, there is no such thing as "too much, or too little".