Struggling with non-FFL Transfer of Long Arm

[lx200]

Ok.. I want to solicit some advice. I understand that in Pa. you can do a face to face transfer of a long arm without using an FFL.

My question is this... is this a good idea? I have a Bushmaster M4 for sale, and somebody who wants to buy it. But they will only buy without an FFL. They will agree to a bill of sale, modeled after the one on this site, but don't want an FFL. Basically just based on "the government sticks their nose in our business too much".

Are non-FFL transfers real common with this type of weapon? Or do most smart people just wait for somebody who will do an FFL deal and avoid those who don't. I personally would have no problem buying from somebody who wanted ME to go through an FFL, so I struggle with this. It does seem like it's not too much to ask.

I KNOW it's my choice at the end of the day. But I am just trying to figure out if 50% of people would say "no bid deal", or 90%, or if 100% would tell me to not be the stupid guy who is the one in a thousand who does a non-FFL transfer.

Damn... I think too much I guess.

[GunLawyer001]

Ask to see an LTCF if they insist on a paperless deal. Prohibited people need to avoid PICS, and some non-prohibited people prefer to avoid it. They both look the same to you.

Selling through a dealer gives you almost blanket immunity if the purchaser or a subsequent purchaser commits a crime with it, anything else comes with risk to you. Are they paying extra to have you keep your name associated with the gun?

If they have a valid LTCF, you can at least argue that you did your due diligence, because (in theory) a prohibited person won't have one.

[myco4you]

You are taking a risk selling FTF,as the buyer could be a felon.

A person with a felony conviction would be denied by the PSP in buying any type of firearm,therefore would try to buy FTF with no paperwork.

[granuale]

Originally Posted by lx200

I KNOW it's my choice at the end of the day. But I am just trying to figure out if 50% of people would say "no bid deal", or 90%, or if 100% would tell me to not be the stupid guy who is the one in a thousand who does a non-FFL transfer.

Is it really your choice? I've never heard of a private party long arm transfer in Pa. going through an FFL. I can't understand why you would have a problem with it at all. Do you know what your liability is? If not, you should look up the law. Generally as long as you don't know the guy is barred, or should know he is barred, you're okay.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by granuale

Is it really your choice? I've never heard of a private party long arm transfer in Pa. going through an FFL. I can't understand why you would have a problem with it at all. Do you know what your liability is? If not, you should look up the law. Generally as long as you don't know the guy is barred, or should know he is barred, you're okay.

Do you really want 12 random jurors second-guessing whether you should have known that the violent felon was a violent felon?

You have 2 bases for liability in a private sale: Tort liability in a civil suit against you, filed by anyone hurt by someone who ended up with the gun whose paper trail ends with you; and criminal liability for violation of the UFA and for negligent or reckless entrustment of a firearm. You should also expect the guy who you sold it to, to testify that he told you that he was prohibited and you sold it to him anyway (bad guys always like to share the pain.)

If the recipient is actually a prohibited person, and he was adamant that he wasn't willing to go through PICS, and he hurt some people, then you face risks that you wouldn't face if you went through an FFL. Read the statutes, compliance with the UFA is a complete defense to criminal and civil liability for a transfer. I wouldn't minimize the risks of a private sale, especially if you do the cost/benefit analysis from your perspective.

[granuale]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Do you really want 12 random jurors second-guessing whether you should have known that the violent felon was a violent felon?

Can you answer my original question. Does the OP or anyone really have this option? I thought getting a transfer for a F to F long gun transaction was unavailable.

As for minimizing the risks, I don't think I did. I advised the OP to read the law. Using the transfer form provided here and with a clear understanding of the law, I think he will be fine. After all, if he wants a 100% guarantee against defending himself civilly or criminally, the crusher is the only place for the gun.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by granuale

Can you answer my original question. Does the OP or anyone really have this option? I thought getting a transfer for a F to F long gun transaction was unavailable.

As for minimizing the risks, I don't think I did. I advised the OP to read the law. Using the transfer form provided here and with a clear understanding of the law, I think he will be fine. After all, if he wants a 100% guarantee against defending himself civilly or criminally, the crusher is the only place for the gun.

Everything is fine as long as nothing bad happens. But if your buyer shoots up a schoolyard, you have your choice between a jury applying the provisions in red below, or the provision in green, and your life will hang in the balance.

(g) Penalties.--

(1) Any person, licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer or licensed importer who knowingly or intentionally sells, delivers or transfers a firearm in violation of this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree.

(2) Any person, licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer or licensed importer who knowingly or intentionally sells, delivers or transfers a firearm under circumstances intended to provide a firearm to any person, purchaser or transferee who is unqualified or ineligible to control, possess or use a firearm under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree and shall in addition be subject to revocation of the license to sell firearms for a period of three years.

........

(5) Notwithstanding section 306 (relating to liability for conduct of another; complicity) or any other statute to the contrary, any person, licensed importer, licensed dealer or licensed manufacturer who knowingly and intentionally sells, delivers or transfers a firearm in violation of this chapter who has reason to believe that the firearm is intended to be used in the commission of a crime or attempt to commit a crime shall be criminally liable for such crime or attempted crime.

(6) Notwithstanding any act or statute to the contrary, any person, licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer who knowingly and intentionally sells or delivers a firearm in violation of this chapter who has reason to believe that the firearm is intended to be used in the commission of a crime or attempt to commit a crime shall be liable in the amount of the civil judgment for injuries suffered by any person so injured by such crime or attempted crime.


(d) Defense.--Compliance with the provisions of this section shall be a defense to any criminal complaint under the laws of this Commonwealth or other claim or cause of action under this chapter arising from the sale or transfer of any firearm.


Forgot to mention, yes, you sure can use an FFL to facilitate a private sale.

[CJR]

I've done a few Long gun transfers through a FFL, one I wanted cause I didnt know the other party, and one the other party insisted on, i wasnt going to argue.
Safer for all that way. Same guy worries about a paper trail but will go buy mags, accessories and ammo mail order on a credit card.
Some FFLs will say no need to do it, which I dont understand, its like free money for them.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by granuale

Does the OP or anyone really have this option? I thought getting a transfer for a F to F long gun transaction was unavailable.

Yes. It is 'possible', just not 'required'.

[RoyJackson]

If you are not comfortable in doing the sale without documentation (the FFL transfer), then don't do it.
I had a buyer for a rifle. The guy just gave me a bad feeling and I requested we adjorn to a local gunshop to conclude the transaction...which we did.
If he had refused going through a dealer, I would have excused myself and left.
There's always another buyer out there...

I don't sell guns too often, but now I put them on consignment at a local gun shop. I never allow any buyers to come to my home.