Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
HB2011 and HB1243 Updates

So far, there hasn't been a 2nd Consideration vote on either of these bills. WE NEED TO KEEP UP THE PRESSURE, and continue to contact our legislators - ask them to tell House leadership to bring these bills to a vote! Ask them to vote YES on HB2011, and NO on the Universal Background Check amendment. In addition, the FOAC is requesting support for an amendment proposed to HB1243 (Mental Health Records for Firearms Purchases) that, if passed, will allow HB1243 to restore firearm rights to those who have recovered from a mental illness.


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  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

I agree that pleading no contest to the pfa is a bad idea.

Maybe I'm a cold sob, but frankly if I had a child with my girlfriend a dna test would be the first thing I would get, particularly if we were splitting up.
IMO if the child ends up not being his then he should count his blessings that he's free of the bitch. I'm aware of the emotions involved after raising a child he thought was his own, but he would still be better off in long run IMO.

Obviously if the child is his he should attempt to get full custody.

Good luck with this one. I wish him the best.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

man PFA's suck i thought they onfiscated your guns if you have a pfa put out on you. or is that if it is found to be a legit pfa?

well i wish your buddy the best and hope he gets everything worked out the whole kid thing sucks
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by God's Country View Post
I agree that pleading no contest to the pfa is a bad idea.

Maybe I'm a cold sob, but frankly if I had a child with my girlfriend a dna test would be the first thing I would get, particularly if we were splitting up.
IMO if the child ends up not being his then he should count his blessings that he's free of the bitch. I'm aware of the emotions involved after raising a child he thought was his own, but he would still be better off in long run IMO.

Obviously if the child is his he should attempt to get full custody.

Good luck with this one. I wish him the best.
It doesn't matter, unless the baby momma wants to give up free money, it won't mean a damn as far as child support goes. His name is on the certificate and he has raised it for years as his own... its his.

Unless he can prove the child is in danger there is no way he is getting custody, at best he may get visitation rights, the only way he will get custody is her signing off on it.

Also doesn't sound like he has the money for a lawyer so he'll get slammed with Alimony payments and child support, depending on the earning discrepancy he'll be looking at more then a grand a month to pay her and for the child
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Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by headcase View Post
I do not believe that the rights losses associated with these PFA's can be justified against the safety issues they sometimes provide. Proper application of basic laws would solve most of these problems.
And just what laws would have been applied? The one that took the police out of the equation when it became a mental health issue? The one that said he couldn't be involuntarily committed because by the time the shrink talked to him he was calm, coherent, rational, etc? The law that makes harassment (IF you can prove it) a summary offense with just a fine meaning no arrest?

Basic laws work in basic situations. There is nothing basic about domestic abuse, especially when someone knows how the system works and is able to use that knowledge to avoid prosecution for their actions.

Quote:
Another generally unpopular solution is personal responsibility. The difficulty in getting away from these abusive situations can almost always be boiled down to not being willing to give up your comfort level to ensure your safety, or that of your kids.
Fear of being killed if you try to leave is the most common reason I've seen for staying in abusive relationships. Second most common reason I've seen is an ex who refuses to stay away resulting in losing hope of being free and just giving up. Most abusers use fear to control their victims, and fear can be a very powerful weapon.

Quote:
If you feel you are in danger, protect yourself. If you can't stand up to the threat, get away from the threat, get help dealing with the threat. If the abuser is an extreme case of slippery, use extreme measures to ensure your safety.
She tried to get away, she asked for help getting away, she used the means at her disposal to accomplish that.

Quote:
But PFA's provide the opportunity to violate the rights of people under the color of public safety, with no due process.
How is there no due process? When filing a PFA you have to provide a reason you are requesting it based on statements given the judge may issue a temporary PFA and if so a hearing scheduled within 10 days. At that hearing, both parties provide evidence and testimony to support their claims and/or refute the others. The judge then makes a ruling based on the evidence and testimony. That sounds like due process to me.

In fact, that sounds like alot more due process than comes with filing an assault charge against someone. That results in arrest and sitting in a cell till they get their day in court. With PFAs they get to continue living their life while waiting for their day in court with the only restriction being they have to stay away from the person that filed it until then.

Quote:
They sacrifice the liberty of all, for the safety of a few.
Just what liberty is sacrificed? The liberty to threaten someone? The liberty to abuse someone? The liberty to victimize someone?

If judges are giving them to people who do not have legitimate need for them the problem lies with the judges, not with the PFA's. We don't tolerate anti's blaming the acts of people who use guns in a criminal manner on guns, yet here you are blaming the acts of people who use the law in a criminal manner on the law.

Honestly, that argument sounds similar to many of the arguments I've heard the anti's use as justification for taking our guns.

Quote:
The poster children for these things are "defenseless women and children". Making better choices in life usually removes people from these type of situations. There are always going to be extreme exceptions, and that sucks, but it is also part of life. Much like the Patriot Act, these things are more dangerous than they are helpful.
Then I guess in your opinion I wasn't justified in getting one against him as well then? Both her and I still have PFA's against him, its why when he shows up at my door intending to get me to tell him where she moved to he gets arrested instead of just being told leave or be cited for harassment. I've found that PFA to be quite helpful, its kept my gun from being fired anywhere other than at the range.

Its not only women and children that can get them, room mates, co-workers, siblings, parents, etc can get them as well.. Other states have Restraining Orders, We has PFA's, its an RO by another name but still just an RO.


Quote:
ETA~
In this case there are a few glaring things, she stopped him from killing himself, then he attacked her? You witnessed him endangering the welfare of a child, among other crimes, and..?
Re-read my original post, specifically this part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfletcher View Post
...A short time after that I got a call at work from her.

She was in tears, the police were on the way to my place. He'd decided to kill himself by using a toaster in the bathtub, she stopped him. He then attacked her and their son (5 months old) with a hammer and a knife. "Mother Bear Syndrome" kicked in and he only managed to cut her hands up as she tried to get them away from him. He bolted from the apartment after that. When I got home the police were outside, he was sitting on the front steps of the building, and he was claiming to not be able to remember anything that had happened at all the entire day, not even where he was when he woke up that morning.
I didn't witness the attack. I did witness him sittin on the front steps with his clothing soaking wet. I did witness the bathtub still full of water. I did witness the bleeding cuts on her hands and the bloody knife on the floor. I did witness the bruise on her shoulder shaped just like the head of the hammer that I witnessed laying on the floor.

Quote:
It is a very familiar sounding situation, and one that very often winds up with the woman crying in court about how she was helpless to do anything about her situation, or her dead. The usual reason being her inability to do what she should to punish him and protect herself.
When one is terrified of leaving someone out of fear they'll kill them what should they do?

She got herself and her son somewhere she knew she'd be able to get help. She asked for that help and got it, and because of his actions and history it was necessary to have the courts order him to stay away from her to be able to actually have him charged with more than BS summary offenses.
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Last edited by mjfletcher; March 16th, 2009 at 01:50 PM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
i agree.

however, there needs to be serious, serious ramifications for women who abuse PFAs...like jail time--in the amount of years.

a PFA can destroy a man's life. the intentional misue of them is not much different from the intentional misues of a firearm. further, they are an instrument of the state. so, when PFAs are abused, the state is a party to it. the state cannot allow itself to be used by one citizen to unjustifiably deny the rights of another.
There should be serious ramifications for anyone that tries to abuse a PFA regardless of sex. Its not just women that file them and get them. I've got one against the wackjob.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

rep to fletch.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredly View Post
Buddy of mine was going through a divorce (she was cheating on him).

The PFA was awarded with no proof at all. she claimed she was in fear for her life and used a "domestic" issue that had occurred months earlier when they were arguing loudly and someone called the police.

Of course it was awarded, within one swipe of a pen from a judge who had NEVER spoken with him, he was barred for contact with his kids, no access to his house or bank accounts and obviously no contact with his (now ex) wife. In addition the judge awarded child support and alimony to the mother for the time where he would be out of the house. He was permitted to go in (while escorted by a deputy) to gather a bag of clothing, which he then gave to the wife to confirm she was fine with him taking the stuff.

took like 2 months to get it all resolved and finally meet with the judge. when they walked into the court room she just said "I'm dropping it" and that was the end of it. He was out over 1500 in alimony and I think almost 2k in child support, I'm pretty sure he was able to (eventually) get the Alimony back. well by "back" i mean credited to what he "owes".


PFA should be called "Protection from law abiding men who wouldn't do anything anyway so that women can do whatever they want without them around".
The bolded was a violation of the law right there, the hearing has to be within 10 days, not 2 months.

Quote:
23 Pa.C.S.A. 6107

Chapter 61. Protection from Abuse (Refs & Annos)

>> 6107. Hearings



(a) General rule.--Within ten business days of the filing of a petition under this chapter, a hearing shall be held before the court, at which the plaintiff must prove the allegation of abuse by a preponderance of the evidence. The court shall, at the time the defendant is given notice of the hearing, advise the defendant of the right to be represented by counsel, of the possibility that any firearm, other weapon or ammunition owned and any firearm license possessed may be ordered temporarily relinquished, of the options for relinquishment of a firearm pursuant to this chapter, of the possibility that Federal law may prohibit the possession of firearms, including an explanation of 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(8) (relating to unlawful acts), and that any protection order granted by a court may be considered in any subsequent proceedings under this title. This notice shall be printed and delivered in a manner which easily attracts attention to its content and shall specify that child custody is one of the proceedings where prior protection orders may be considered.


(b) Temporary orders.--

(1) If a plaintiff petitions for temporary order for protection from abuse and alleges immediate and present danger of abuse to the plaintiff or minor children, the court shall conduct an ex parte proceeding.

(2) The court may enter such a temporary order as it deems necessary to protect the plaintiff or minor children when it finds they are in immediate and present danger of abuse. The order shall remain in effect until modified or terminated by the court after notice and hearing.
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Last edited by mjfletcher; March 16th, 2009 at 01:33 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfletcher View Post
There should be serious ramifications for anyone that tries to abuse a PFA regardless of sex. Its not just women that file them and get them. I've got one against the wackjob.
there should be... but there aren't, and that is the issue. If the person completing a PFA was held liable under civil or criminal law then I would say they are fine... but they aren't. There is no recourse for the person that has a PFA filed against them.

My buddies ex's lawyer TOLD her to do it as it works in their favor to get a speedy divorce in most cases and gives one spouse all the power over the other. Whoever gets the PFA first holds all the cards, holds the house, the possessions... everything.

The hope is the spouse will just plead it out, and then this is used as leverage in the divorce. As soon as her lawyer heard he had a lawyer on retainer and they were fighting it they decided to drop it at the court house (of course after he got charged the lawyers fee for showing up to trial).

As far as I am aware a PFA DOES forbid the person issued against from handling firearms http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_...&state_code=PA

Quote:

How can a Protection From Abuse Order protect me?

A Protection from Abuse Order can do more than protect you and your children. It may:

* order your abuser not to abuse, harass, or stalk you, your relatives or your minor children;
* grant you possession of your home or order the abuser to provide suitable alternate housing, whether or not you own or lease your home together or separately;
* award temporary custody or temporary visitation rights of your minor children;
* order the abuser to pay financial support (including medical bills, health insurance, rent or mortgage payments) to you or your children;
* prohibit the abuser from having any contact with you or minor children, including staying away from your or your child's place of employment or business or school;

* order your abuser to turn any of his firearms, other weapons or ammunitions to the sheriff or police, if he used them or threatened to use them during the abuse;

* order your abuser to pay you for losses resulting from the abuse (this may include medical, dental, relocation, attorney and counseling costs, as well as loss of earnings or support).

* grant any other appropriate relief you request.

Whether a judge orders any or all of the above depends on the facts of your case.
And the best part? the vast majority of PFA is "whoever strikes first, WINS". There is no proof necessary, its 100% he said / she said, no witnesses are needed (although they can help or hurt). Its all about "what happens behind closed doors", just like Terroristic Threats... no witnessed needed, "He said he would go berserk if I ever divorced him and now I did so I'm worried"... PFA granted
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXWildPonyXx View Post
man PFA's suck i thought they onfiscated your guns if you have a pfa put out on you. or is that if it is found to be a legit pfa?

well i wish your buddy the best and hope he gets everything worked out the whole kid thing sucks
Under certain conditions the person the PFA is filed against can be required to surrender their weapons to the sheriff or transfer them to another party.

Quote:
23 Pa.C.S.A. 6107

(b) (3) In addition to any other relief, the court may, pursuant to section 6108 (relating to relief), direct that the defendant temporarily relinquish to the sheriff any firearms, other weapons or ammunition for the duration of the temporary order if the petition demonstrates any of the following:

(i) Abuse which involves a firearm or other weapon.

(ii) An immediate and present danger of abuse. In determining whether an immediate and present danger of abuse exists, the court shall consider a number of factors, including, but not limited to:

(A) Whether the temporary order of protection from abuse is not likely to achieve its purpose in the absence of such a condition.

(B) Whether the defendant has previously violated a protection from abuse order.

(C) Whether past or present abuse to the plaintiff or any of the plaintiff's minor children resulted in injury.

(D) Whether the abuse occurred in public.

(E) Whether the abuse includes:

(I) threats of abuse or suicide;

(II) killing or threatening to kill pets;

(III) an escalation of violence;

(IV) stalking or obsessive behavior;

(V) sexual violence; or

(VI) drug or excessive alcohol use.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old March 16th, 2009
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Default Re: Well it happened, PFA on my friend and he has questions

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Originally Posted by mjfletcher View Post
There should be serious ramifications for anyone that tries to abuse a PFA regardless of sex.
yes, of course. i said "women" without really thinking about it because every abuse of PFAs that i have ever heard of was a wife or girlfriend (or ex-either) using them against husband/boyfriend (or ex-either).

but, certainly sex should not matter at all before the law.
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