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  1. #1
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    Default 9mm suitable for home defense?

    Well, seeing as how the results of my previous thread have only made me want to move away from California, I think I'd better see what other calibers might be viable.

    The Beretta CX4 Storm carbine looks interesting. Actually I think it looks wacky, but it is shorter in overall length, semi-automatic, and doesn't use any wildly expensive caliber bullets. That said, how's the stopping power for a 9mm round? Overpenetration likelihood? How's the accuracy for the CX4 Storms?

    Also, if I wish to use it for target practice at the range, how much further out would the effective range be over my .22 LR CZ rifle?

    Cameron

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    9mm is most certainly suitable for home defense. I can't tell you much about the Beretta but can relate some of my findings about using 9mm in 16" carbines.

    You'll pick up 100-150 fps with 125 gr or lighter ammo compared to a handgun. Don't use subsonic in carbine as you will actually lose velocity due to barrel friction. I've chronographed a couple of subsonic factory loads in a Glock 26, MP5 (10" barrel), and a Marlin 9 and High Point and the results were in the area of 990/1007/960 fps respectively.

    As for accuracy I find my marlin or High point will do 6-8" at 100 yds which would make it accurate enough to use at that range.

    Based on comparative chronograph results the 9mm in a pistol gives more velocity than +P ammo in 38 special. The extra velocity in a carbine helps ensure expansion of hollowpoints. Not something to hunt rhinos with but respectable stopping power. Would you think a 9MM submachine gun has good stopping power. Yes, you would hit the target with multiple rounds but you should be doing that with any handgun. The carbine is a lot easier to place your shot with than a handgun.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by GRIZ; April 16th, 2007 at 06:35 PM. Reason: sp

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    As we saw on the news today, evidently it is.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    Yes, a 9mm will Kill...With that said, So will a .22cal.

    Do yourself a favor and stay away from 9mm for home defense unless you live in the middle of no where and don't have to worry about over penetration and possibly killing an innocent by-stander. The 9mm is notorious for over-penetration.

    You would really be better off with a 5.56mm that if you happen to miss and hit the drywall..it will essentially disintegrate upon impact or a 12ga. loaded with something like #8 shot.

    Getting woken up in the middle of the night and grabbing a gun and shooting your target and hitting it...is not the easiest thing to do. Think about how often you actually hit your target dead-on at the range under perfectly controlled conditions.

    Of course disregard anything I said here if you care less about getting sued, losing your home, family and possibly going to prison, all because you missed your target.

    Just my .2 cents -- But why risk it?

    TJ

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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by TJB63 View Post
    Yes, a 9mm will Kill...With that said, So will a .22cal.

    Do yourself a favor and stay away from 9mm for home defense unless you live in the middle of no where and don't have to worry about over penetration and possibly killing an innocent by-stander. The 9mm is notorious for over-penetration.

    You would really be better off with a 5.56mm that if you happen to miss and hit the drywall..it will essentially disintegrate upon impact
    TJ
    Say what??? I've put .223 FMJ through 8" trees! I've also put it through 1/4 boiler plate, where the steel looked like it was penetrated by a drill bit. It might get deflected, but it certainly won't disintegrate.

    A 9mm frangible round or Glaser blue dot would be fine for in-home defense.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    I think a big reason why people choose pistol calibers in rifles is for caliber consolodation....not ballistic performance. With that said, a 9mm in a rifle/carbine will do just fine for what you are looking to do. I do think that your CZ 22 may out-shoot your choice of 9mm carbine at the 100yd line though.

    I would have to agree with Randoms comments also, varmint 223 may be on the frangible side but my experience dictates that most 223 (especially commonly available surplus) is pretty good at penetrating...especially the SS109/62g stuff.
    Guns are good.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTask View Post
    Say what??? I've put .223 FMJ through 8" trees! I've also put it through 1/4 boiler plate, where the steel looked like it was penetrated by a drill bit. It might get deflected, but it certainly won't disintegrate.

    A 9mm frangible round or Glaser blue dot would be fine for in-home defense.

    That I would like for witness myself.. 8" Tree?? If you are using 62Gr Steel Penetrators maybe, But a 55gr FMJ I don't see it. There's been test after test done and usually what people think are penetrations are usually the casing fragmenting. Have you tried placing a target behind what you are shooting through?? The tests I've seen done and also read about have never shown an intact penetration and it's this reason that a 5.56mm is so effective at taking out human/soft skinned targets.

    Try the target behind what you are shooting at..I'd like to hear the results.

    I do agree with the 9mm Glaser round though...You should be safe with that, But I would try experimenting with it first to make sure it doesn't penetrate. Afterall People these days are too sue happy and gun scared.

    TJ

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by TJB63 View Post
    Yes, a 9mm will Kill...With that said, So will a .22cal.

    Do yourself a favor and stay away from 9mm for home defense unless you live in the middle of no where and don't have to worry about over penetration and possibly killing an innocent by-stander. The 9mm is notorious for over-penetration.

    You would really be better off with a 5.56mm that if you happen to miss and hit the drywall..it will essentially disintegrate upon impact or a 12ga. loaded with something like #8 shot.

    Getting woken up in the middle of the night and grabbing a gun and shooting your target and hitting it...is not the easiest thing to do. Think about how often you actually hit your target dead-on at the range under perfectly controlled conditions.

    Of course disregard anything I said here if you care less about getting sued, losing your home, family and possibly going to prison, all because you missed your target.

    Just my .2 cents -- But why risk it?

    TJ
    I have to disagree anything that will not penetrate drywall will not stop a man let alone some doped up loon. A 9mm is a good home defence round, just when you pull the trigger be sure to hit your target and choose ammo that will not overpenetrate. Drywall will not stop a 5.56, i dont know where you heard that but you might want to do some research. However if im wrong show me proof and ill be glad to admit im wrong.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    Home defense = shotgun.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 9mm suitable for home defense?

    The last edit to this post revised the paragraph formerly titled, "Thirdly, your ammunition should be subsonic." It also corrected the term hypersonic to supersonic. Hypersonic means: "Relating to or capable of speeds equal to or exceeding five times the speed of sound (Mach 5 and above)." Lastly, a "must read" link was provided for "low light" considerations.

    I live alone in a multi-dwelling housing unit where kids also reside, so my priorities may differ. I am not a self-defense/personal safety expert, and I both deny and disclaim providing any actionable information or advice in this post. This post should not be considered sufficiently accurate or complete for the purpose of being relied upon by anyone contemplating providing for their own defense/personal safety or that of another. Moreover, it is no substitute for such information or advice that is available from a certified self-defense and personal safety expert.

    The first home defense weapon (HDW) priority is accessibility. Typically, by the time you have obtained and readied the HDW for fire, you need to shoot NOW. Therefore, it has to be easily retrievable from a secured location. (I would never leave my HDW unsecured when I am not home.)

    Were I planning a home-invasion robbery, under a worst-case scenario, i.e., under conditions of complete civil breakdown, I would strike while everyone is gathered around the dinner table eating supper. Chances are, you won't be armed, the doors will be unlocked, the intrusion alarm system will be off, the dog will be out in the yard... you get the picture. How are you going to defend yourself and your family?

    This is precisely the situation wherein using chemical mace in a confined, inadequately ventilated space is unwise. You're more likely to disable yourself and your family. Asthmatics will likely be in critical jeopardy.

    A Stampede that left bodies piled at least four in height in the main doorway was caused by discharging mace in a Chicago nightclub.
    "You could see a mound of people," said Cory Thomas, 33, who went to the club to pick up two friends. "People were stacking on top of each other, screaming and gagging, I guess from the pepper spray. The door got blocked because there were too many people stacked up against it."
    Forget about all those other "less-than-lethal" do-dads, too. That stuff is for cops who are trying to control unruly behavior. This post isn't about all the subtle nuances and contingencies you may encounter during a home invasion, but if someone you don't know enters your home uninvited, you still have the right to produce a firearm to change their mind about visiting you unannounced (without pointing it directly at an unarmed intruder, unless they present a clearly imminent threat of great bodily harm or death).

    And for those of you who are curious, my revolver hangs on the bathroom door from a ballistic nylon shoulder rig (which will be reasonably stable while I'm both wet and naked). It's complete with speed loaders, back-up ammo, a tactical knife and 3 regular-sized O.B. tampons (which are not packaged in applicators). I'm a dude. Can you guess what those tampons are for? Why only 3 tampons? Because any less is being cocky, and any more is being pessimistic. Besides, if I'm still functional after being shot more than 3 times, and the intruder is still a viable threat, I'm putting my last "lucky" bullet through the back of my mouth.

    Secondly, a HDW must allow for one-handed operation, so that you can aim and shoot while opening doors or windows, or turning lights on and off (if necessary). We'll discuss more about ambient v. tactical lighting, later.

    Although it goes without saying, you'd be surprised at how many people get this wrong. If it doesn't compromise your safety, always call 911 before investigating that bump in the night. You'll be no good to anyone if you're later incapacitated after failing to have first called 911. Moreover, you may bleed to death while waiting for help to arrive. And all the while, you'll anguish over whether or not someone else called after hearing gun shots. Alternatively, you may need to call 911 post-incident because some people have been ambushed and shot due to their 911 call having revealed their location, as well as having eliminated the element of surprise. The same goes with making noise while inserting an ammo magazine, and while racking either the slide or the charging handle.

    That's why if my HDW cannot be safely stored ready-to-shoot, I don't need it. It's also why my preference is a .45 Long Colt/.454 Casull revolver loaded with .45 LC Winchester Silver Tips, and Hornady JHP Casulls (there is no frangible ammo in these calibers that I'm aware of). Although the hammer is always strapped down with a thumb-break, the gun is always loaded. It never jams. There is no safety to forget about. For self-defense, I fire it double-action (DA) only.

    Thirdly, your ammunition should be both subsonic and frangible (more on frangible ammo below). Most confrontations will probably take place while you're taking cover in an interior hallway or a similarly confined space (the idea being, of course, to keep the intruder out in the open, if possible). Most supersonic rounds, particularly when shot through a muzzle brake that directs expelled gas up and back toward the shooter, will probably cause some irreversible hearing damage; e.g., tinnitus, at the very least. If not, your hearing will be compromised at least temporarily, which means you can't hear where that intruder you missed ran off to.

    Even a discharge from a shotgun that's powerful enough to take a large man down from across a room will be only slightly less loud than supersonic pistol and rifle rounds. Got a silencer/suppressor? Good for you, but remember, there are always 3 sounds to consider: 1) The weapon's discharge, 2) a supersonic bullet breaking the sound barrier, and 3) the sound of the intruder either collapsing on the floor, or running away. If you hear a fourth sound, you screwed up. It will either be a scream, or possibly, a hammer dropping. Whatever it is, it won't signify the most optimal outcome, and you may not get a do-over.

    The other disadvantage to supersonic ammo is the blinding muzzle flash on weapons that don't feature flash concealment. The closer the flash occurs to you, the more your field of night vision is disrupted. Don't think that you can just close your eyes when the trigger trips. You'll inevitably jerk the trigger, and on a short-barreled weapon at greater than point-blank range, you'll likely miss the target. And an armed intruder may immediately return fire now that he knows exactly where you are.

    (Yes, I know that .454 Casull is supersonic. But if I don't nail the intruder with the first four .45 LC's, he's probably either got a ballistics vest on, or he's behind good cover that I need to shoot through. In the event of the former, I just hope that the blunt-force trauma from the Casull load will disable/incapacitate him long enough to disarm and secure him. For the same reasons, in high-power supersonic calibers, as a last resort, homeowners should load ammo that will also penetrate hard cover objects, e.g., heavy furniture. This consideration also militates favorably toward revolvers as a HDW weapon of choice. I can easily distinguish the .45 LC's from the .454 Casulls because the primer of one is like shiny chrome, and the other is like dull brass. Therefore, if I absolutely need to get to the last two .454 loads without reloading, I can quickly "dial them in" by opening the cylinder and repositioning it to advance to the .454 on the next DA trigger pull.)

    Fourthly, the HDW should have a BATFE-legal barrel length, or shorter (i.e., a bona fide handgun). Alternatively, you may try to get the BATFE to issue you the tax stamp and paperwork for a legally-qualified, short-barreled rifle or shotgun, provided that you're willing to pay $$ for it. The point being, you need to be able to open a door with the HDW in its proper firing position, and pointed at an intruder who may be directly on the other side. If possible, don't let the intruder come to you. Use the cover and concealment features of your home to your advantage. If your arms aren't long enough to open that door with your legal-barrel-length rifle or shotgun, you made the wrong choice for a HDW.

    Fifthly, your HDW's sights must allow for almost instantaneous sight picture and sight alignment in low light. Using a tactical flashlight is just going to reveal your position and ruin the element of surprise. Unfortunately, if ambient lighting is insufficient (leave window coverings open at night, with proper exterior lighting pointed away from your home), using a tactical flashlight may be necessary in order to properly identify your target. Therefore, once you turn on a tactical light, it should be held out in front of you, and as high and away from you as practicable so as not to become a target beacon. Use the light to distract an intruder and disrupt his night vision, while shrouding yourself in darkness as much as possible.

    The bottom line is that for greater than point-blank range, you need night sights at least, and preferably, a tritium-reticle-based, fiber-optic-enhanced, reflex sight. Don't believe all this S.W.A.T. crap you see on TV. Entry teams mount tactical lights on their weapons because they can't all have their arms extended and blocking their buddys' view. You're probably going to be alone, unless your partner/roommate is as well trained and drilled (along with you), and is as mentally disciplined for neutralizing home invasion threats as you are (and you are, aren't you?). Survival is rarely ever fortuitous. Plan, prepare yourself mentally and physically, equip, train, tweak and drill-baby-drill!

    Sixthly, in a field trial of several common pistol, rifle and shotgun rounds put through the "Box O' Truth" from 12 feet, the test revealed that all of them, except .22 LR, but including 5.56 ball ammo, penetrated 12 sheets of 5/8" drywall. A small sample of the field trials is shown below.



    Even a frangible 5.56 round penetrated 4 sheets of 5/8" drywall (simulating 2 interior walls) before exploding inside a plastic gallon-sized water jug.




    There is a frangible bullet that, if represented accurately, is designed to shatter into powder on contact with drywall, yet penetrate human soft tissue with lethal depth and kinetic energy transfer.
    The following excerpts from http://www.extremeshockusa.com/ are quoted out of context:
    NyTrilium-Tungsten Air Freedom Rounds

    "... Under most circumstances, the AFR (Air Freedom Round) will not penetrate the skin of conventional aircraft... . It is also designed to not penetrate the aluminum backs of most airline seats, reducing potential collateral damage in the event of a shootout at 30,000 feet. Unlike rounds made of polymers that can generate lethal ricochet, the Extreme Shock AFR round will turn to harmless powder if it misses its intended target and hits a hard surface. It is the only round in the world with this level of performance and safety. This is also possibly the world's safest home defense round, as in most circumstances, it will fragment in standard 1 half-inch sheet rock wallboard. This bullet runs at plus-P type pressures, and should be used only in firearms of good construction and good working order." [Emphasis added.]

    "It fragments in logamarithmic proportion to the hardness of the target it strikes. It more than doubles the rate of energy transfer of a typical hollow point round! It more than quadruples the rate of energy transfer of conventional ball rounds. If it is striking something brittle, it's Nytrilium-Tungsten core will disintegrate very rapidly, reducing shoot-through and ricochet. When it hits softer organic targets, it fragments at a slower rate, with larger fragments dissipating into the target creating literally hundreds of wound channels."

    "E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system."

    "100% percent of the energy is transferred into the surrounding tissue mass. This is the reason that the effective E-Shock wound channel is up to (depending on caliber) an astonishing 200 times the size of the entry wound!! Like a shaped charge that is used against tanks and armored targets, the NyTrilium fragments pick up the surrounding tissue mass and rams it forward, dramatically increasing the effective frontal area of the projectile."

    "The pistol rounds comply with appropriate DOJ pistol caliber ballistic vest requirements, but are devastatingly effective against armed assailants."
    [I have not found any subsonic or frangible ammo configured in .45 LC or .454 Casull cartridges, so I have no experience with them.]
    Last edited by Heretical1; October 16th, 2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason: For added content, better explication of key points, and stylistic improvement.

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