Firearms training

[27hand]

How many of you have taken firearms training classes from instructors that teach the defensive use of firearms?

I don't mean NRA training where you cannot even use the word "weapon" .
We all know that our defensive firearm IS a weapon.

I have taken about a dozen of these self defense classes, enjoy every minute of them and learn a tremendous amount in every one of the 2 and 3 day classes.

The instructors that the Fire Institute and Defense Training International bring to the Pittsburgh area are masters of self defense training.

I would say Giles Stock, who teaches at Gunsite is the one trainer that opened my eyes as to how much I didn't know about firearms. He comes to Pittsburgh 2 to 3 times a year and teaches basic pistol, but also comes to teach second level carbine and a few more advanced courses.

All of us men that have guns don't think we need to be trained because we have been shooting since we was "kneehigh to a grasshopper" and when and if the situation ever came to be that we needed to defend ourselves that we will be capable of diong whatever it takes to prevail.

This thought pattern is pure BS.
If something bad happens, it will happen when you least expect it, you will have only seconds to react, it will only last a few seconds, if you don't know what to do, you won't do it, you will fight like you train ( I borrowed this last paragraph from a carbine class I took last year).

The Fire Institute has brought trainers from around the country to teach classes in basic pistol, carbine, shotgun, edged weapons and contact distance defense.

A lot of schools offer 5 day classes in each of these catagories. The Fire Institute brings these guys to Pittsburgh for 2 or 3 days which most of us can swing by taking one day off from work and having the other two days on a weekend. You don't need to fly to another part of the country involving vacation time, airfare, lodging, car rental, etc, etc. You can get the same training in your backyard for a fraction of what it would cost to go elsewhere.

I was very hesitant when I signed up for my first class in June of 2000 thinking I could buy a fair amount of ammo and range time for the same buck.
Only after I took my first class at Greater Pitt Gun club did I realize that most of us don't know what we don't know.

Visit their website for more information. If you have a gun, you owe it to yourself to learn how to properly use it. www.fireinstitute.org for their schedule of upcoming training classes.

Hans

[deepcharge41]

Hans, thanks for this info. you posted for gun training, it sure helps a lot of us next time when they are back in the Burgh.
Deep

[starblazer]

Does anyone know of similar classes held closer to the Philadelphia region? I've looked into those fellas at fire, but it's just not feasable for me to make a long weekend of it out of town. I'd love to find something a bit more local.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by starblazer

Does anyone know of similar classes held closer to the Philadelphia region? I've looked into those fellas at fire, but it's just not feasable for me to make a long weekend of it out of town. I'd love to find something a bit more local.

Count me in.

[27hand]

Although I mentioned it briefly, i didn't mean to diminish the training given by DTI or Defense Training International.

This organization is headed up by John Farnam and also is excellent training.

They also provide training for women only. John's wife Vicki teaches that class.

Another class which I will take is Tactical Treatment of Gunshot Wounds.
It is a class that all trainers, Range Safety Officers, and anyone who spends a fair amount of time on the range should have. Hopefully you will never have to tend a gunshot victim but negligent discharges do happen and it will be a bonus if you can know what to do till trained medical people can get there. Some of the Fire staff have taken this training and also have positive feedback about it.

The trainers I have had the pleasure to learn from do not advertise multi-thousand round courses or hi-speed/low drag training and do not guarantee you will be the most skilled firearm operator on the planet. As a matter of fact, they teach nothing but the basics, which given time, you will be able to perform faster and more accurately. You however have to do your part and train when you go to the range. Don't just go there to plink. Reinforce your safety rules. Work on issues you know you have problems with. Stance,grip,loading/unloading, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger press, follow through. Then work on presentation,press checks,reloads, malfunction clearances.

Don't forget to learn how to advance and withdraw without falling, shooting on the move, flashlight techniques when shooting in lowlight situations, manipulating the firearm without looking at it when there isn't enough light to see what the problem is.

Eventually you learn to clear a building, how to pie the corners and verify good guy/bad guy.

Just when you think you are "getting it", you realize there is a whole new plateau of additional info you didn't even think about before and now you are again a beginner at that next level. You start to think about Tactics and how to use or when to use force.

You will be taught that when confronted by someone at bad breath distance, you will never even get your firearm out before being attacked. Luckily, you can get training for close quarters fighting. Essentially you can aggressively counter or make distance to get your firearm or blade. You can learn how to shoot from retention or deflect an attack. Randy Cain, Steve Tarani and Ben Salas come to the Burgh to give this type of instruction.

Most trainers will tell you to get instruction from as many different instructors as you can. Some stuff will work, some will not. Take what you can and use it to better yourself.

As soon as I get the stitches out of my cornea, I'll have to see (HA) if I can see the front sight or if I'll need new glasses to see. If there is a problem, i may have to learn how to shoot cross-dominant or learn all over again left handed.

Later everyone, hope I didn't bore anyone.

PS the Tactical Carbine class is a go.

Hans

[45-70]

Hans Dont Bad Mouth The NRA Instructors That Dont Want To Call Guns Weapons. GUNS are NOT WEAPONS Untill they are used as Weapons. Yes GUNS CAN Be used as WEAPONS. Gulf Clubs CAN be used as WEAPONS. Baseball Batts CAN be used as WEAPONS. Cars can be used as WEAPONS. AND Even SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS A BOX CUTTER CAN BE USED AS A WEAPON... HAVE YOU EVER USED YOUR GUN AS A WEAPON??????

[27hand]

45-70

No, I have never used my gun as a weapon. Nor have I used any of the other items you listed as a weapon. Even in the service, I only used my fists as a weapon when a drunk tried to use his as such.

When you train to defend yourself with anything , you are training with a weapon, be it a firearm or any other device. That's what you are training to do.

I went through NRA RSO training and followed up with becoming certified
in Home Firearm Safety, pistol, Personal Protection, rifle and shotgun. The courses MANDATED that we not use the term WEAPON(regardless of what it was to be used for). The fact that the NRA instructors repeatedly corrected everyone that had used that term became comical to quite a few in the classroom.

MY personal opinion is that when firearms are used for self defense training, the gun is not a target shooting toy, it is a WEAPON and the person being trained is there to be trained to use deadly force if necessary to protect himself and /or his family with that weapon.

I have the mindset that if someone is trying to do me dirty and I feel threatened , my firearm, knife, hands and mind are weapons at my disposal. I hope I am never put to the test, but I also know if I am, I can.

I don't know if NRA policy regarding firearms training disallows that terminology due to some legal liability issue but it seems this may be the case. This is my opinion. we are all allowed to have them regardless of what they are.No one has to agree with me.


Later 45-70. maybe we can take the guns do some target shooting sometime or we can take our weapons and train to prevail in a gunfight.

27hand

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by 27hand

How many of you have taken firearms training classes from instructors that teach the defensive use of firearms?

I don't mean NRA training where you cannot even use the word "weapon" .
We all know that our defensive firearm IS a weapon.

Hans

So when I learned it, it must of been wrong then, because I learnt a weapon was some thing you assault with, where as a firearm was some thing you used to defend or as a sport.

Example, If some one used their car as a weapon against me by trying to run me over, I could use a wall or a truck to defend my self... Nor the truck or the wall is a weapon, just a defense mechanism.

The reason the NRA will not tolerate the word Weapon is because we are not members trained in the art of killing in the NRA, but for sporting or defense needs. You could use your car as a race car if you had say a Ferrari or even some thing like a vette or a camaro.
But try telling PEN-DOT you need to put a plate on your "Race car" and see what they say. Same car, different definition, one is meant to race, the other to drive. You can drive fast, just never say you where "racing" to a police officer.

Now if you are trained in the Military, you would say weapons because that is what they do, they are mandated to go out and protect some thing or some one. And if need be are licensed to kill. (assault)

So I'm not saying that the word is wrong, just that if you are using the word, take the whole definition. If you are using a weapon, it should be ceased from you unless you are military or a LEO who can then say that he is mandated. As a citizen, you own guns. As for the mindset thing you say you have, saying you have a Weapon and that:

Originally Posted by 27hand

I have the mindset that if someone is trying to do me dirty and I feel threatened , my firearm, knife, hands and mind are weapons at my disposal. I hope I am never put to the test, but I also know if I am, I can.

This is known as pre-meditation, meaning you already have it all planned out in your mind, so say you shot some one now, even if you normally would be in the wright to do so, your very "mindset" and publishing it could very well land you in jail. 1: for owning a weapon 2: for having a mindset of killing rather then protecting should the occasion arise.

Your choice in words can very well define how you think and live, but that can follow you a long time. In 30 years from now, you may be forced to use a defencive device, might be as simple as punching some one out, but posting some thing saying you where ready and had the "mindset" to kill if need be, would be used against you in a court of law should some one dig it up.

MY personal opinion is that when firearms are used for self defense training, the gun is not a target shooting toy, it is a WEAPON and the person being trained is there to be trained to use deadly force if necessary to protect himself and /or his family with that weapon.

When a firearm or any other defence is used in defending a person, it is a defence mechanism. It is not a weapon, And guns should never be refered to as a toy either. I understand you mean well in your posting, but your wording is all wrong, not just by NRA standards, but by any sporting or self defence standards. If i had to defend my self and later in court I had to explain it, I would say "I used the defence mechanisms available to me..." If asked to name them, I could then say "A shotgun, a pistol, a wall, a 2x4 or a knife." If I say a "weapon", I immediately place my self in a position to admit I was assulting rather then defending. Showing there was a pre-meditation to my actions.

Here are a few definitions for you.

Main Entry: mind-set
Pronunciation: 'mIn(d)-"set
Function: noun
1 : a mental attitude or inclination
2 : a fixed state of mind (pre-meditation)

Main Entry: 1as·sault
Pronunciation: &-'solt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English assaut, from Anglo-French, from Vulgar Latin *assaltus, from assalire
1 a : a violent physical or verbal attack b : a military attack usually involving direct combat with enemy forces c : a concerted effort (as to reach a goal or defeat an adversary)
2 a : a threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact

Main Entry: 1weap·on
Pronunciation: 'we-p&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wepen, from Old English w[AE]pen; akin to Old High German wAffan weapon, Old Norse vApn
1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2 : a means of contending against another
Versus

Main Entry: 1gun
Pronunciation: 'g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gonne, gunne
1 a : a piece of ordnance usually with high muzzle velocity and comparatively flat trajectory b : a portable firearm (as a rifle or handgun) c : a device that throws a projectile
2 a : a discharge of a gun especially as a salute or signal.

Main Entry: 1kill
Pronunciation: 'kil
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, perhaps from Old English *cyllan; akin to Old English cwellan to kill -- transitive verb
1 a : to deprive of life : cause the death of b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering


The word weapon is to the word gun the same as the word murder is to the word kill. The result is the same but the meaning is not.
Big book says "Thou salt not murder". Murder is having the mindset of removing ones life in pre-meditation.
It does not say "Thou salt not kill" where as you may well have to kill to defend your self, this would not be murder. Words and how you use them can make all the differance in how people react to what you say and mostly to how they react to you as a person.

Sorry about the 2 mile long post guys..

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by 27hand

45-70

I went through NRA RSO training and followed up with becoming certified
in Home Firearm Safety, pistol, Personal Protection, rifle and shotgun. The courses MANDATED that we not use the term WEAPON(regardless of what it was to be used for). The fact that the NRA instructors repeatedly corrected everyone that had used that term became comical to quite a few in the classroom.

27hand

Reminds me of that little ditty they taught us back in Boot Camp..."This is my weapon, this is my gun; my weapon's for killing, my gun is for fun."

Of course, since it was WAC Boot Camp, the "this is my gun" portion didn't really apply very well.....

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Reminds me of that little ditty they taught us back in Boot Camp..."This is my weapon, this is my gun; my weapon's for killing, my gun is for fun."

Oh My God! I remember having to run the parade square yelling that, FNC1 in one hand and making a shaking motion in front of me for the gun.... Probably why I still use shotgun, Rifle, Pistol, and revolver rather then just gun when ever i speak. we did "This is my rifle, this is my gun.."