History of LTCF?

[HiredGoon]

I keep seeing the "police check card" issue come up when Montgomery Co. residents apply for a LTCF and I'm thinking maybe it is left over from previous years and was never changed when the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) was put into effect.

Also how so many people, and even sheriffs and police, call the LTCF a "gun permit".

That got me thinking that it would be very interesting to trace the history of the gun permit/LTCF in PA.

I know that back in the early 1980s, that a LTCF was issued for only 1 year and included the make, model, serial number and caliber of the firearm.

If anybody has any more info on previous licenses/permits, please post it here. Such as maybe an older version that a father or grandfather had.

It would probably be difficult to track down this history as far as the actual document itself, applications and requirements...any other ideas?

[knight0334]

I really dont know too much about the history of the PA licensing.

I do know that back in the '70s dad's Jefferson County permits/licenses had his guns' make/model/SN on the back and that mom used to go pick it up for dad because pops worked on the road and was only home a couple weekends a month.

[mythaeus]

Originally Posted by HiredGoon

I keep seeing the "police check card" issue come up when Montgomery Co. residents apply for a LTCF and I'm thinking maybe it is left over from previous years and was never changed when the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) was put into effect.

Also how so many people, and even sheriffs and police, call the LTCF a "gun permit".

That got me thinking that it would be very interesting to trace the history of the gun permit/LTCF in PA.

I know that back in the early 1980s, that a LTCF was issued for only 1 year and included the make, model, serial number and caliber of the firearm.

If anybody has any more info on previous licenses/permits, please post it here. Such as maybe an older version that a father or grandfather had.

It would probably be difficult to track down this history as far as the actual document itself, applications and requirements...any other ideas?

Can't answer the question without a lot more research. I just wanted to point out that the place where you apply and receive LTCF in Philadelphia is called "Gun Permit Unit".

Al

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by HiredGoon

I keep seeing the "police check card" issue come up when Montgomery Co. residents apply for a LTCF and I'm thinking maybe it is left over from previous years and was never changed when the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) was put into effect.

Only thing I can figure for the police check card is that they're using it as part of the investigation they must perform, essentially 'outsourcing' part of the task. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here....

ie: The sheriff (I assume) can check with the local police to see if there is any record of calls to your home, but is choosing to have the police do the check for that themself. If they find that the police are out at your home a couple nights a week, every week, at 2am because you're completely wasted and screaming, yelling, being belligerent, etc but its never resulted in charges being pressed he may deny based on the 'character' clause using that as evidence of your character and reputation.

[wis bang]

Originally Posted by knight0334

I really dont know too much about the history of the PA licensing.

I do know that back in the '70s dad's Jefferson County permits/licenses had his guns' make/model/SN on the back and that mom used to go pick it up for dad because pops worked on the road and was only home a couple weekends a month.

I remember my father's permit having his pistol listed and then (or any other gun) which was rare inthe 50's...

[press1280]

Originally Posted by HiredGoon

I keep seeing the "police check card" issue come up when Montgomery Co. residents apply for a LTCF and I'm thinking maybe it is left over from previous years and was never changed when the Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) was put into effect.

Also how so many people, and even sheriffs and police, call the LTCF a "gun permit".

That got me thinking that it would be very interesting to trace the history of the gun permit/LTCF in PA.

I know that back in the early 1980s, that a LTCF was issued for only 1 year and included the make, model, serial number and caliber of the firearm.

If anybody has any more info on previous licenses/permits, please post it here. Such as maybe an older version that a father or grandfather had.

It would probably be difficult to track down this history as far as the actual document itself, applications and requirements...any other ideas?

I don't know about PA-but when I got my WV permit they referred to it as ,"gun permit." From my research, WV, and probably a lot of other states on a locality by locality basis allowed sheriffs to issue concealed permits, as the practice was illegal almost everywhere(WV's dated back to the 1920's). The impression I got was private investigators, undercover agents,exc. would need the permits. This was "may-issue," the same system still used in CA and NY, where county issuance is at the discretion of the localities, and results as far as getting one is drastically different from county to county.
I suspect PA's(along with most other states) probably followed a similiar history,as PA and WV got shall issue in the late 1980's.

[panther76]

My understanding is that in 1986(?) there was a state supreme court ruling that held most of the gun laws in PA unconstitutional under the state constitution. The Brady crowd lost all political leverage, and the NRA brokered a deal creating the current LTCF. The deal apparently upset some who simply wanted to keep the status quo, after the court case, which in effect would have been what Vermont has, no shall issue permit, but also no law against CCW.

Prior to the court case, PA had laws which I believe were close to NY or CA, in that it was shall issue and went by local area, with some places like Philly having total bans.

[archon]

As far as I understand from reading case law about the Uniform Firearms Act is that sometime in the 20's (probably around 1928 when gun control was first being pressed at a national level) PA enacted laws that provided that local authorities (the sheriff except in Philadelphia county) may issue permits to carry a firearm in a vehicle or concealed about one's person. The applicant had to show some cause why they needed to carry a firearm and be of sound and fit character. The courts usually gave the local authority broad discretion in their decisions to issue or deny permits. (However I did once read a case from 1948 reversing a denial to a 60 year man of upstanding character who wanted to possess a firearm due to declining strength and because he lived alone.) There was a state constitutional challenge to this licensing scheme sometime in the late 70's but it was rejected by the PA Courts.

I believe the UFA was revised around 1988 making it harder for a local authority to deny a license. This was around the time that the NRA and a few think tanks came up with the modern "shall issue" model licensing scheme and managed to convince the Florida legislature to be first to adopt it.

The current licensing scheme was adopted around 1995 when "shall issue" laws were sweeping more conservative states. From what I can recall, this was a major platform of the state republican party which helped them sweep elections in 1994.

PA was one of the first states after Florida to adopt a very liberal "shall issue" licensing scheme. It departed from the model legislation by foregoing any type of required training before qualifying for a license.

Also, from what I can tell, the permit has always been referred to as a "License to Carry a Firearm" in state statute, but for some reason is often referred to in case law as a "gun permit." This reason is probably mere simplicity. Gun permit is a lot easier to write over and over again then license to carry a firearm.

I am not aware of the 1986 PA Supreme Court case referred to by one poster. I did a quick search and could find no reference to it. If someone knows of that case and can provide the parties or a citation it would be much appreciated.

[Dredly]

I believe the PA permit referenced actually required the owner to "register" a hand gun and the permit was linked to that gun. Any other gun could be legally carried and owned, bought, sold... etc as long as the original gun "registered" was never transferred.

Think of it as a gun owners permit... as long as you had it you could own or carry any handgun you had, if you didn't have the gun anymore you had to get a new permit (stupid huh?)

[panther76]

Originally Posted by archon

I believe the UFA was revised around 1988 making it harder for a local authority to deny a license. This was around the time that the NRA and a few think tanks came up with the modern "shall issue" model licensing scheme and managed to convince the Florida legislature to be first to adopt it.

The current licensing scheme was adopted around 1995 when "shall issue" laws were sweeping more conservative states. From what I can recall, this was a major platform of the state republican party which helped them sweep elections in 1994.

I am not aware of the 1986 PA Supreme Court case referred to by one poster. I did a quick search and could find no reference to it. If someone knows of that case and can provide the parties or a citation it would be much appreciated.

I had a LTCF in 1995. The Shall issue law was passed in 1988. The changes to UFA passed in 1995 had to do with handgun purchases and instant check, as well as other things. The 1988 law I think went into effect in 1989. It was prompted by a court ruling a year or two earlier.

I haven't had time, but I'd start with Lexisnexis to find the case. It's usually a better source for that type of info over just doing google.