Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 28
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Bechtelsville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Posts
    914
    Rep Power
    19374307

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Yes, trust language, just like anything else, can be copyrighted. With regards to using Quicken, I have written extensively on the issues with it. Moreover, there have been two incidents, that I know about and have written about, where the BATFE has become involved because of invalid trusts after the BATFE had already approved the trust previously (http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/4/20/...nvalid-u-trust, http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/5/22/...-invalid-trust). I know of many more instances where the BATFE kicked the trust back on the original transfer/making application because it was invalid. As I always say, as long as you are aware of the possible consequences, do as you want. However, if you don't seek out legal advice and end up getting nailed, be a man and don't cry about it because you were forewarned.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Berwyn, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Here's one starting point, as an example: http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust#Trust-Example

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
    Posts
    17,641
    Rep Power
    21474870

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by dbooksta View Post
    If you want "peace of mind" pay a lawyer to sign off on everything.
    I do and I will. It is a good idea in my opinion. But it is NO guarentee. Lawyers make mistakes. I clean them up all the time. Even if they don't, law and regulations are subjective to a degree. For one lawyer to win another has to lose. You can always get screwed by a different lawyer (such as a prosecutor). Then lose your NFA toys or go to prison or both. Then what? Well, you have the piece of mind that you can pay another lawyer and sue your former law firm from prison. Guess who runs out of representation first?

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Bucks Cty, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    927
    Rep Power
    37301

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by dbooksta View Post
    Here's one starting point, as an example: http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust#Trust-Example

    Than why even ask if you already have a boilerplate.

    I don't know you from Adam. You are asking me to give you something I paid for for free. It was worth it for me to pay (two hours) for a Trust a lawyer put together and will update for free. Now use your boilerplate.
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog."

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northampton County, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
    Posts
    17,641
    Rep Power
    21474870

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    Yes, trust language, just like anything else, can be copyrighted.
    Interesting. I wish I had the funds to go after people. Missed that in my legal exam (not a lawyer), was taught work product is the property of client once paid for barring trade secrets and patents. I think I overlooked it. But I will probably do better just continuing to produce work since we don't have internal counsel. Thanks for the info.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    3,262
    Rep Power
    11857

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    Interesting. I wish I had the funds to go after people. Missed that in my legal exam (not a lawyer), was taught work product is the property of client once paid for barring trade secrets and patents. I think I overlooked it. But I will probably do better just continuing to produce work since we don't have internal counsel. Thanks for the info.
    I always thought that too. Doesn't matter to me but I always figured that it was the same as programming software. If a client hires me to write code for them, they own the code not me.
    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    If the police could confiscate all of your guns and ammo using just one van, then you didn't own enough guns or ammo.
    WTB - NDS3 or NDS1 receiver FTF

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Bechtelsville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Posts
    914
    Rep Power
    19374307

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Its funny because few people even look but the Quicken wills and trust are copyrighted so that people don't buy it and give it to their friends. The person who buys it can use it for their own purposes but cannot distribute it. Nevertheless, Quicken's trust has been posted online all over the place.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Jacksonville, Florida
    Posts
    31
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Its funny, but he instructions and examples provide several incorrect facts.

    One of them is that the docs state that the grantors are the one who can use the firearms.

    I'd be really careful about copying or using a regular trust for NFA purposes. Even if you do fill it out correctly and figure out that the information provided online cannot be relied upon, they instruct your family and friends to take actions which are violations of the NFA. You might review these two links
    http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/1...rms-trust.html

    and
    http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/1...-firearms.html to find out more about the differences between an NFA trust and a normal trust.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    13,616
    Rep Power
    21474867

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Corporations, LLC's, trusts and Wills are all state-specific entities or documents, there's no one-size-fits-all. There are certainly similarities, and there are multi-state Model Codes that may or may not have been adopted in Pennsylvania.

    If you're a Pennsylvania resident looking for Pennsylvania legal advice on the Web, you should discount any website that is not at least edited by a Pennsylvania attorney. Sites where plumbers or architects or doctors are urging people to "do what I did, it works", are just dangerous. Slipping a document past the ATF clerk isn't the test of a valid trust or corp or LLC, any more than the proof of a good Will is that the Notary Public stamped it.

    The test of any legal document is what happens when it's challenged. When ATF or the local cops attack your right to be in physical possession of an NFA firearm, for example. Because ATF can go back and challenge your registration from 15 years ago, if you're relying on that registration for not feloniously possessing an NFA firearm that's not registered to you personally. And PA law makes all machineguns illegal (as Prohibited Offensive Weapons under Section 908), unless you can affirmatively prove that you possess them in accordance with Federal law. So you have 2 potential LEO groups who can attack the legality of your possession. The good news is that if it fails, PA will only confiscate all your guns, prohibit you from all future gun ownership for life, fine you, and give you community service for a first offense.

    Given the number of mistaken police raids on the wrong addresses, misuse of cops to harass political enemies, warrantless searches, and general harassment of gun owners in some jurisdictions, there's some chance that LEO's will be motivated to find something to nail you with, someplace where you forgot to cross a t or dot an i. And politicians like Bloomberg and Schumer have found that attacking gun owners over technicalities is a slam-bang guarantee of favorable press coverage.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Jacksonville, Florida
    Posts
    31
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Sample NFA Trust

    Great advise, I would only add a few comments.

    While PA may only take your guns, a illegal possession violation can be brought under both state and federal law without double jeopardy. This means you can be subject to both the state and federal penalties which unfortunately would not only be limited to loosing the firearms.

    We are seeing more invalid trusts under state laws that the ATF has approved in the past. This like an invalid or defunct corporation or LLC creates problems for those with Title II firearms. If you live or plan to keep these items in PA, you need a PA NFA Firearms trust, not one created in Texas or some other state. A Trust can be a simple or a very complex document. The reason a simple trust is not a good idea for NFA is that the laws are very complex and we never know what will happen to us or our family and thus the document needs to deal with all of the unique issues of NFA firearms ownership, transfer, and possession. Many so called NFA Trusts are just estate planning trusts with a few minor changes. A properly drafted trust should let you and others involved with it know their responsibilities, duties and obligations in regards to these highly restricted items. If you want to know if you have a true NFA trust, pretend you do not know anything about the NFA, as is likely with your successor trustee, and read the trust and see if you would distributed the property without a proper transfer, would you ship it across state lines, do you know if the beneficiary would be qualified, which state laws do you need to review before making a transfer, do you have the ability not to transfer if the child or adult is not mature enough in your mind?

    These are only some of the basic issues that should be covered in any NFA trust, if they are not you are just using a traditional trust and you are just asking for trouble.

    On the same not any corporation or LLC should have similar provisions and powers, obviously they will not be able to be as flexible as with a trust, but they should come close. While not all of the information on our website has been edited by a PA lawyer, we have several lawyers we work with in PA who do write articles and review the materials. Not everything on our website is PA specific as we cover information on each state.


    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Corporations, LLC's, trusts and Wills are all state-specific entities or documents, there's no one-size-fits-all. There are certainly similarities, and there are multi-state Model Codes that may or may not have been adopted in Pennsylvania.

    The test of any legal document is what happens when it's challenged. When ATF or the local cops attack your right to be in physical possession of an NFA firearm, for example. Because ATF can go back and challenge your registration from 15 years ago, if you're relying on that registration for not feloniously possessing an NFA firearm that's not registered to you personally. And PA law makes all machineguns illegal (as Prohibited Offensive Weapons under Section 908), unless you can affirmatively prove that you possess them in accordance with Federal law. So you have 2 potential LEO groups who can attack the legality of your possession. The good news is that if it fails, PA will only confiscate all your guns, prohibit you from all future gun ownership for life, fine you, and give you community service for a first offense.
    .

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. trust?
    By bogey1 in forum General
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: October 18th, 2009, 05:27 PM
  2. Trust?
    By K31 in forum General
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: April 11th, 2009, 04:30 PM
  3. Sample ballot
    By thanker92 in forum General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: November 2nd, 2008, 12:11 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: September 11th, 2008, 10:43 PM
  5. WTS: Post Sample Polish Tantal
    By John@JCDLESales in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 7th, 2007, 12:17 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •