The right for police to lie?

[webgun]

Sorry people, police don't make the laws. If you have a problem with DUI checkpoints get out and vote. Get "them there" laws changed. DUI checkpoints are unconstitutional. You act like the sky is falling. And no,I'm not giving up any of my rights.
I'm know I'm voting this election.You want to crybaby about
unconstitutional ,how would you like to give up your right to bear arms. Now theres a real issue. This old redneck,gun-toting,hillbilly is going to be voting with the NRA.
See ya

[pacodelahoya]

Originally Posted by webgun

Quote:How can you avoid a DUI checkpoint?

Quote:How can you avoid "matching the description" of a perp?


DUI checkpoints are designed to keep the general public alive by keeping drunks off the road. Why would you be afraid of one. Unless you're a drunk,
this benifits you ...the public.
As far as being mistaken for a perp, if you carry identification as to who you are and you're not the perp ,an appoligy would be in order and sent on your way.
I think you are leaving out some facts and trying mislead viewers into believing you are an eternal victim.

I used the Dui checkpoint analogy in reference to your premise that if you aren't doing a crime, then you wouldn't even be in contact with the police.

But, since you brought it up

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Even The chief justice of the supreme court knows they are unconstitutional

Chief Justice Rehnquist began his majority opinion by admitting that DUI sobriety checkpoints do, in fact, constitute a "seizure" within the language of the Fourth Amendment. In other words, yes, it appears to be a blatant violation of the Constitution. However, he continued, it's only a little one, and something has to be done about the "carnage" on the highways caused by drunk drivers. The "minimal intrusion on individual liberties," Rehnquist wrote, must be "weighed" against the need for -- and effectiveness of -- DUI roadblocks. In other words, the ends justify the means.

But just alittle, you know like slighty pregnant or maybe just a tad dead, and heck, the ends do justify the means right?








As for the carrying of identification, what does that have to do with the fact that if you get pulled over, or stopped while walking "because you fit the description" you will be having a chat with the police? This whole conversation was started because YOU said that if you were doing nothing wrong, then you wouldn't be talking to the police. Then I gave at least two scenarios, where an inocent man would be in the position of having to defend himself from an investigation and you came up with this

I think you are leaving out some facts and trying mislead viewers into believing you are an eternal victim.

OK, here are the facts I left out. When I was approched by the officer, I didn't immediatley roll oto my back and discharge a small amount of urine onto my belly, therefore showing complete submission to the alpha animal. I actually(GASP)used my civil rights and did nothing more that what was legaly required to assist the fine officer in his investigation.

I'll give you an example.

Sir, do you know why I pulled you over?

No.

You crossed the white line.

(silence)

DId you here me sir?

Yes.

Do you have anything to say?

No.

Sir, have you been drinking tonight?

(ah now I see where this has been heading)

No.

Where are you coming from sir?

How is that germaine to your accusation that I crossed the white line?



So, you get the picture,I was made to do every circus trick in the book, no ticket at the end of it, and that was like twenty years ago, so no,I haven't been in trouble with the police. Nice try on the strawman though.

How can you( and I don't mean just you webgun don't take it personally) be an ardentdefender of the2A and let all the others fall by the wayside?


As far as allowing the authorities into your home?? I'll reserve coment, everyone else that has responded has said all I could.

[webgun]

Haven't got the time or patience to address all your questions. Got a DUI checkpoint to go to.

[leeam]

While I think it's good that the officer who replied in this thead (sorry, forgot the name), doesn't go overboard like some officers do, the reality is that there are innocent people getting fucked every day by officers and I know from first hand experience. So for people to claim this stuff doesn't happen and to have never been in a situation where things start out innocently and just pile up against you when you're trying to help the police and think it'd not happen to you is just ignorant.

I am an example of someone who gave up their rights in order to "help the police" determine that a friend and I were innocent (was right after I turned 18) in Brookville, PA. The end result is that I was arrested, spent at least 3 hours in the police station with my friend being questioned to the point I was about to confess. We were released that night. I had to pay for a lawyer, who contacted the police to discuss the evidence or something, I don't know. Anyway he got the charges dropped.

This 'arrest' has screwed me time and time again over the years. It also prevented me from getting a federal job I had an interview for and just had to complete the security clearance (required a top secret clearance, which I no longer qualify for it seems) and the free college tuition that went with it.

The story:

A friend and I were driving around randomly at night. It was just something we did. We'd go to Perkins late at night, then just drive around. He was driving a brown 1983 Buick Lesabre (this was in 2001). I of course was in the front passenger seat. I was wearing a hat and glasses. The hat I was wearing was an odd type of hat, not your typical baseball cap or nitted ski-mask type.

So we're driving through a residential neighborhood and my friend runs like 3 stop signs. He slows down, but doesn't actually stop. A couple minutes later we get pulled over. Naturally I think this is about the stop signs.

Officer comes to the driver side window, asks for ID, then he asks ME to get out of the car. I say "why? I wasn't the one driving." He just tells me to get out of the car. Asks me what we were doing, I told him just driving around. He asks me where we'd been earlier, I told him we were at Perkins. He asks me if I was on Jefferson street, I said maybe, I don't know where that is (I wasn't familiar with Brookville, and still aren't). Then he starts asking me if I knew some girl (don't remember the name). I said no. Then he asks me if I know anyone who lives in or goes to school in Brookville. I said I didn't know if anyone I went to school with lived in Brookville (at the time I lived in Punxsutawney, was going to school in DuBois, it was certainly possible that someone I went to school with lived in Brookville, but I'm answering his questions as they're asked and trying to be honest).

So then he asks me if I had been walking on Jefferson street. I told him the last time I was out of the car was in DuBois at Perkins. I said I had opened my car door when we got into Brookville, but didn't get out of the car (I thought they may have seen me do that, so wanted to be clear). The reason I had opened the door was that I was trying to pick up one of those cd->cassette tape adapters from the floor and the wire was stuck in the door, so I had to open the door to get it. Again I'm being honest because I didn't do anything, initially thought we were pulled over for my friend running the stop sign, then thought something happened and they wanted to know if we saw anything, or something. I had no idea what I was suspected of.

So then the officer asks me if I was on a porch on Jefferson street, I said no. Then he says something like "so you didn't just run up on a porch and back off?" I said no, and he tells me that they have a witness that saw me do it. I said I wasn't the right person. In an attempt to show how unlikely it is that I fit the description I asked if the person in the description was wearing a hat like mine and glasses (they were prescription type, not sunglasses btw). He tells me yes. He also tells me the witness saw me get into a car that matched this description. I asked if the description was a large brown 1980s car and he said yes.

He then asks if I'd be willing to have the witness (who was some girl being harassed and her house vandalized repeatedly over several weeks) see if I matched the description. I said "sure". At this point I'm thinking I'm in the clear and cooperating is just going to help the police see they've got the wrong person. So the officer just tells me to wait, a couple mins later she shows up. He asks me to face away from her (keep in mind it's night). And they bring her over and ask if I'm the person. She tells them "yes". WTF this was at night, and all she saw was the back of me. I'm sure a lot of people would match the description of someone they likely barely saw running away from their house at night.

So then he read me my rights, cuffed me, and threw me in the police car. They told my friend to drive to the station. We get there and my friend and I are in the same room. They tell me that I have the right to a lawyer, but since I didn't have one, I could have the public defender come, but since it was Friday night he wouldn't come at least until the morning, maybe not until Monday and I'd have to wait in jail there, or I could waive my right to a lawyer and explain my way out of it. I (stupidly) opted for the latter.

So my friend and I are sitting in chairs near eachother being questioned. I'm still in cuffs. They ask me if I'd consent to a lineup. Of course I'm all for it. What are the chances of me being picked out of a lineup? So they bring the witness in. She picks me. Keep in mind there were 2 people in this "lineup", both sitting in charis. My friend and I. I was 6' 170lbs and in cuffs, still wearing the same hat the witness saw me wearing (from the back) in the dark a few minutes earlier, and the second person in the lineup (my friend) is 6'4 300lbs not in cuffs.

So some more questions and they split my friend and I up. They did the whole good cop bad cop thing. Telling me my friend admitted that I did the vandalism and if I just admit to it they'll get me a reduced sentence and so forth. This goes on for hours. They kept reviewing the evidence. I was in the neighborhood when it happened, I matched the desciption (as did the car), the witness identified me twice, my friend told them I did it, and explaining I can get a reduced sentence by pleading guilty. After several hours of this you start to think, "well I'm pretty fucked. All this evidence is bullshit, but they seem to think otherwise, maybe I should just confess". Also keep in mind I knew that if I was convicted, since I had just recently turned 18, the punishment would probably have been harsher and be on record.

We were eventually released. I contacted a lawyer, he managed to get the charges dropped. My guess is they realized their evidence was sketchy, they had no confession, and if it went to court they'd lose, and the fact that I got a lawyer showed that I was probably innocent, but then again, I don't really know.

Btw the reason remember most of these details after 7 years is that the moment I got home I wrote a description of everything that happened. I wanted to keep my info straight for court. I still have what I wrote up.

The point of all of this is that this shit does happen. It happened to me. I used to be friendly with cops and if I was walking down the streets and they asked if I saw something I'd offer any assistance I could. Now anytime I see an officer near me I just get pissed off. While tactics like they did may have convinced someone who did a crime to admit to a crime, or otherwise drag info out of someone, that's not what happened in my case.

[wjh2657]

The problem with lying is once you start you can't stop. As a father and a retired HS teacher I speak from the experience of dealing with lies every day.

Recently I was stopped by a SHP Trooper for speeding. The ticket said 69MPH in a 55MPH zone . I was driving 54 mph, on cruise and I looked down at speedo when I saw the blue lights. I said nothing and accepted the ticket.When I came back I saw he had another car pulled over. When I got in court he had the whole courtroom full from that one day. I guess he was up for promotion or had his butt chewed for not working hard enough. Whatever it was he lied many times that day. Where did it start, I don't know but it was now part of his system. I didn't fight it because judge offered traffic school and no record. Others did fight it and brought lawyers to next court appearance. All lost, in this community at least a policeman is always right in traffic court.

Without delving into the whys and wherefores of the behavior of the police,I (a member of FOP, friends with many LEOs, 30 Year Marine) joined a prepaid legal service the same day I finished my Carry Classes.

Thank god they are out there to catch the BGs but when they approach me
I will give the nice officer my legal service/lawyer's card,smile, be quiet, do what he says, wait for my lawyer, but most of all I WILL SHUT UP!

[webgun]

It sounds like "leeam"got a raw deal, and a bogus lineup. Didn't say what the outcome of the court hearing was.
The only thing wrong is the the general attitude of some posters I can see is this. Police solve crimes by interviewing witnesses. Usually they are the last ones on the scene trying to figure out what happened. The shut up ploy when you see the police may be good if you are the accused but if you witnessed a crime and maybe it's a family member or a friend is the victim. So you're saying piss on them and you don't care who did it and don't want them prosecuted?
I ain't talking to the police, right?
Good luck with that!!

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by webgun

I ain't talking to the police, right?
Good luck with that!!

I'll talk to the police all day long if I have the time free...and a lawyer present.

[leeam]

Originally Posted by webgun

It sounds like "leeam"got a raw deal, and a bogus lineup. Didn't say what the outcome of the court hearing was.
The only thing wrong is the the general attitude of some posters I can see is this. Police solve crimes by interviewing witnesses. Usually they are the last ones on the scene trying to figure out what happened. The shut up ploy when you see the police may be good if you are the accused but if you witnessed a crime and maybe it's a family member or a friend is the victim. So you're saying piss on them and you don't care who did it and don't want them prosecuted?
I ain't talking to the police, right?
Good luck with that!!

There ended up not being a hearing. I called a lawyer the following monday, he contacted the police and charges were dropped.

You could say it was a "wrong place at the wrong time", but the situation started with the police obviously lying about the description of the perp + car and not telling me why they stopped me up front. You could say I wasn't a suspect when they first stopped me, but it seems clear that I was. Then doing a bullshit lineup, which probably wouldn't have held up in court. They just did it so they would have more bogus evidence to use when intimidating me to confess.


While I think it's important for witnesses to talk to police, I for one am never doing it again. Apparently when you're a suspect they don't tell you, so you screw yourself when you're trying to help them out.

[Bmaninmifco]

Originally Posted by webgun

It sounds like "leeam"got a raw deal, and a bogus lineup. Didn't say what the outcome of the court hearing was.
The only thing wrong is the the general attitude of some posters I can see is this. Police solve crimes by interviewing witnesses. Usually they are the last ones on the scene trying to figure out what happened. The shut up ploy when you see the police may be good if you are the accused but if you witnessed a crime and maybe it's a family member or a friend is the victim. So you're saying piss on them and you don't care who did it and don't want them prosecuted?
I ain't talking to the police, right?
Good luck with that!!

I'm sure you've heard of JonBenet Ramsey.
Seems to me that the parents were the suspects even though they did all they could to help the police.

OJ Simpson arrested and tried in a court of law found innocent.

If the police want to talk to me period a lawyer is going to be present.

I don't care if I'm just a witness or not.

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by P-11 shooter

*warning, the following statement MAY be viewed as cop-bashing. Parental discretion is advised*







Hmmm. Since the police make it a common practice to LIE to citizens, Is it really such a shock that people mistrust them?



P-11seriouslyfolksSHOOTER

You could easily reverse that statement too now couldn't you?


OOPS! I answered this before I finished reading the entire thread. Looks like you guys already covered this.