The right for police to lie?

[cLion]

That's the one! thanks paco!

Originally Posted by pacodelahoya

Don't know if this is what you want, but a little google fu got me this http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-...-to-the-police

[Steve in PA]

So if the guy is suspected of raping a little girl..........your girl maybe, you'd have a problem with the police questioning someone like that?

By the way, except on tv I have never seen or heard of anyone being questioned like that.

[P-11 shooter]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

So if the guy is suspected of raping a little girl..........your girl maybe, you'd have a problem with the police questioning someone like that?

By the way, except on TV I have never seen or heard of anyone being questioned like that.

Maybe, but I'd rather have people convicted on evidence, rather than forced confessions after extremely long interrogations.

I saw a special on innocent people who spent years behind bars for crimes they never committed and all were interrogated in such a way.

I'm getting kind of tired to debate this, so I guess my answer is I don't know. It just dosn't sit well with me.

[PennsyPlinker]

The only people who say they never lie are...

LIARS!

Everyone has told at least one lie in their life. Police are no different than the general population. Might an officer try to trip you up? Of course! Should you take the bait? Never!

This is a possible scenario that you need to prepare for, just like anything else. If a police officer stops you for something and says something that is untrue in an attempt to get you to admit to something, what are you going to do?

1. Deny it hotly?

2. Give him a big story with lots of details?

3. Shut your mouth about that, but ask a very specific question?

The answer is number 3. Shut up about anything and everything, but ask a question. Are you arresting me officer, or am I free to go? This puts him in the position of having to do something. If you are free to go, you are free. If he is arresting you, then you really need to clam up and get a lawyer.

I used to think that if I was innocent of wrongdoing, I could talk my way out of it. But then I watched that video about never talking to the police. I made Mrs. Plinker watch it, as well as our daughter. I have great respect for the police, and I have a number of friends or acquaintances who are LEOs, active or retired. But if I am involved with one on a professional basis, I am not going to flap my yap!

[Robert Kayland]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

Does the opposite also apply?

Yes, but the problem is, the police often automatically treat anyone they deal with as a liar and perp, and all-too-often let their egos take over when dealing with someone who doesn't automatically kowtow.

We've all seen it, even during minor traffic stops. I had a state trooper actually tell my wife "Tell your husband he's lucky he didn't get shot." after she was stopped for going through a red light (she was following me to the auto dealer at the time, I was going to drop off my car and she was going to take me to work). While the cop was writing her ticket in his car, I got out of my car to tell her I was going to drive up ahead to the dealer, and he (from 20 feet away in the protection of his car) starts freaking out, blasting his siren and bullhorn for me to "GET BACK IN YOUR CAR! GET BACK IN YOUR CAR!". I put my hands up in the air like "WTF?" and tried to tell him I just wanted to tell her I'm going on ahead, but he kept blasting away. So I gave him a pretty stern look as I went back to my car, and was fully prepared to give him a piece of my mind if he approached me. But he then gets out of his car, gives my wife the ticket, and then goes back to his car and shoots out of his spot going at least 60 miles an hour as he zooms past her car and mine.

Now, here's a late-forties housefrau driving her station wagon and me in a Jeep Liberty, an early fifties guy in a white shirt and tie. Say what you want about "Oh, well they have to protect themselves, who knows if you were going to hand your wife a weapon" bullshit. This was right off of Rt. 309 in a suburb whiter-than-white, everything out in the open and plenty of other cars in the area driving by at 8:30am.

Well, that's my most recent encounter with PA's finest, so even I, a staunch conservative and defender of the police, can see why so many people have an issue with LEOs.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

Can the police lie? Depends.

First, if I am questioning you on the suspicion of a crime, you will have your rights read to you. Whether you choose to exercise those rights is up to you.

I can lie and say I have you on video tape doing this, that or the other thing....or I have a witness, etc. Why should that influence you into "confessing" to something you didn't do?

An officer can tell me that he has me on tape screwing a sheep......but if I know I didn't..........nothing in this world is going to make me confess to something I didn't do.

During a traffic stop I don't ask where you are coming from or where you are going, I could care less. I may ask you how you are doing tonight. And yes, I am trying to engage you in conversation. Its called doing my job. Maybe I saw you drift over the line, maybe your driving at night with just your parking ligths on (which by the way happens quite alot). Everyone wants DUI driver's off the road, but everyone also pitches a fit if a LEO tries to get this done.

I'm not about to lie to you and say I saw you do something I know you didn't do. And you are within your right to not say anything to me except that which is necessary to complete the stop.

Excellent points Steve, thanks for bringing them up, the thread needed some balance.

Personally, I know they can lie, I know that sometimes some of them do lie, and I am sure some of the lie quite often. You don't get to pick law enforcement officers out of some special sample of the human race, they come right out of the general populace and they're afflicted with al of the maladies and personality flaws that the rest of us, including doctors, lawyers, burger cooks, mall clerks and car salesmen are.

The main difference is going to be how the job (and other external forces throughout their lives) shape their mindset. A cop in Philly might come to the mind that everyone is guilty of something and it's his or her job to find out what it is using any means necessary simply because nearly everyone that they can recall at some point was guilty of something. That doesn't mean that everyone they've ever interacted with was guilty, just that those that weren't suspicious and didn't raise the RAS or PC alarms were allowed to go on their way about their business and out of the LEO's mind. When it comes time to recall all of the people he or she has dealt with over the years, those people often just slip their mind.

I have a friend that works as an LEO in one of the worst neighborhoods across his entire state, and one time after hearing about all of the bad people he'd dealt with that week, I asked him about any good encounters he'd had. The question literally floored him, he sat on the line (VOIP) in complete silence for so long that I had to ask if he was still there. He replied that he knew he did have many positive interactions, and a number of neutral ones as well over the week, but for the life of him he couldn’t pull the details of them. Sometimes that's just how things go.

Conversely, a small-town LEO in the middle of Nowhereville might come to have a softer nature and mindset about people in general. In a town where few real crimes are committed and everyone knows everyone, it's not unheard of for LEO's to take individual circumstances into account and work with the people rather than jail them.

And to be honest, I have no problem with this. As long as the officers maintain legal conduct while speaking and investigating with citizens and suspects, I don't fault them regardless of whether or not I think the conduct should be permissible or legal (GPS surveillance without a warrant, lying etc...). A cop is going to use all of the tools available to them to get the job done and go home each day; if we don't like that the cops can lie and maybe even falsely purport to have evidence of a crime, then instead of damming LEO's for it, we should work to get the law changed somehow.

Now, things like no-knock warrants and tactical raids on non-violent offenders are another story; I don't care how legal they happen to be...but that's a topic for another thread.

[Robert Kayland]

I always check to see if their pants are on fire.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

Why should that influence you into "confessing" to something you didn't do?

a few issues contribute to that.

1. many people have no faith that whether or not you get tried and convicted has anything to do with whether or not you are actually guilty. too many innocent people get convicted of crimes they have not committed.

the police ask for the confession by saying something like "if you just confess, we will help you get leniency. if you don't cooperate, you will end up going to jail for much longer".

the person thinks "crap, i didn't do this, but i will get convicted and railroaded and sent to jail anyway because i can't afford a decent lawyer and the public defender's office is woefully underfunded and incapable of properly defending anyone due to their ridiculous case load. so, i guess i should just cut my losses and confess to minimize my pain. after all, even though i an innocent, my only two choices are to either go to jail for X years or for 2X years. i guess i'll take X years."

2. some people have an extremely strong desire to please and avoid confrontation (for some it is even a personality disorder). you want them to say X, you are an authority figure...with enough pressure, they will say X to please you.

An officer can tell me that he has me on tape screwing a sheep......but if I know I didn't..........nothing in this world is going to make me confess to something I didn't do.

you are a strong person who knows how things really work. you can likely also afford a decent lawyer. many people are neither that strong nor capable of affording a lawyer.

I'm not about to lie to you and say I saw you do something I know you didn't do.

i don't think there are many officers who would say they saw you do something they know you did not do.

how many would lie and say they saw you do something they think you might have done (but don't really have any evidence), though?

i'm not even saying it is not good police work. however, you gotta admit that such tactics make it quite prudent to refuse to answer the questions of any officer you do not know. if it is a common practice for police to lie to people, it is only rational to assume a random officer who is asking you questions might be lying to you.

of course, the unfortunate reality of our world is that it is prudent to just not trust anyone you don't know, regardless of their profession.

[Michele]

I think in their search for information they might stretch the truth a bit. They are sworn to protect and serve the community as a whole. I believe most try to keep the peace.

If a police officer lies to you and you've done nothing wrong then of course you have absolutely nothing to worry about. However, if a pervert molested your neighbors daughter, you would expect the officer to "lie through his teeth" to get the information he needs to prosecute and put that scum bag away forever.

I truly believe that most officers do their job well. Of course there are a few that cross certain lines, but maybe, just maybe they have to.

I truly believe that officers are human beings. They hear and see the most outrageous shit. Do you really think it doesn't effect them personally? It does. They very way you take stuff home from work, so do they. I'm pretty sure the stuff that causes you to be outraged also outrages them.

My feelings are reflected in my post in this thread:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2...tml#post436263

I do have many friends back in NYC that are current officers, some retired. I've heard stories, have seen pictures, and they have cried on my shoulder about the things they have seen or done. It takes a certain kind of person to be an officer. I myself, couldn't restrain myself in certain situations to preform that job. I give major kudos to police officers.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Michele

you've done nothing wrong then of course you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

that is just not realistic. many, many people get convicted for crimes they did not commit.

the innocence project, for example, exists for a reason.

do a google search for "wrongly convicted". it will make you understand that "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about" is a complete fallacy.

and, even if you don't end up getting convicted, you can have your whole life basically destroyed.

ask people like brandon mayfield, richard jewel, steven hatfill, willie earl green, etc. if the philosophy that you have nothing to worry about if you have done nothing wrong holds true.