Drugs + guns = DEATH!

[Philbert]

Back on topic: the "legalize and tax it" argument has a serious flaw: people don't like paying taxes. Cigarettes and alcohol are still sold illegally, despite being available relatively cheaply. Pot is going to be more expensive, both because of the lower demand (nobody is going to smoke 20 a day if they have any life at all) and because of the inevitably heavier taxation.

Regarding a gun owner who gets high, I don't think the mere possession of pot and guns is any worse than the possession of pirated DVDs and guns. Illegal drugs and illegal movies are both illegal, and both are often sold to finance organized crime. The difference is that your illegal drugs might lead you to do something stupid with your gun. And that is the crux of the issue. If someone gets high and carries, or gets drunk and carries, then I think they are a danger just like someone who drinks and drives, and they should lose their LTCF at the very least.

[P-11 shooter]

I really hope we can do this without personal attacks. I think this is a good debate.

I'm just one of those crazy guys that believes in freedom. I don't think that it's the governments place to tell me what I can and cannot put in my body. I also think it's ridiculous they tell me I can't chop an inch off my gun barrel.


Great posts guys, let's keep it going. We don't have to be Nazi's about it.



DAMN IT!


P-11loserSHOOTER

[Carnes]

Originally Posted by Robert Kayland

It wasn't an accusation, it was an invitation! For someone so adamantly defending the stuff, I just thought... well, we'll just chalk it up to wishful thinking.

I don't have to get into lengthy arguments with people about how we don't need more gun laws, and that many of the ones we have are unconstitutional.

On the other hand, if you want to debate pro-life/pro-choice, I am down for that... I'd be glad to hit on gay marriage, the tax system, the environment or whatever else.

It just so happens that drugs came up in this thread, and there is more irrational hatred of drugs from people here than there is irrational hatred of guns among the antis.

Really, I don't care if anyone hates drugs, I have a pretty low opinion of them myself. It is just problematic because people that adhere to irrational fear and hatred of drugs ultimately end up supporting the deterioration of our freedom as a result of that.

[Robert Kayland]

Originally Posted by Philbert

Back on topic: the "legalize and tax it" argument has a serious flaw: people don't like paying taxes. Cigarettes and alcohol are still sold illegally, despite being available relatively cheaply. Pot is going to be more expensive, both because of the lower demand (nobody is going to smoke 20 a day if they have any life at all) and because of the inevitably heavier taxation.

Regarding a gun owner who gets high, I don't think the mere possession of pot and guns is any worse than the possession of pirated DVDs and guns. Illegal drugs and illegal movies are both illegal, and both are often sold to finance organized crime. The difference is that your illegal drugs might lead you to do something stupid with your gun. And that is the crux of the issue. If someone gets high and carries, or gets drunk and carries, then I think they are a danger just like someone who drinks and drives, and they should lose their LTCF at the very least.

I can agree in principle, although I still have my doubts about drugs versus DVDs... but then again, Lord knows how some of those movies serve to poison the mind as well!

If it were up to me, and it was merely over a handful of pot found in the apartment, I'd just have the LTCF revoked, but I wouldn't deny him the right to own guns and keep them for protection and sporting purposes.

[knighthawk06699]

Seriously what right does any oen have to tell me what I can and can not put into my body??

The fact of the matter is this Marijuana was made illegal in the 30's if I am not mistaken with the mass influx of Mexican immigrants. They brought it with them and smoked it as part of their daily routine. The the depression hit and we wanted the cheap Mexican labor gone so we could put Americans in those jobs. So they put a tax stamp on weed, figuring if we ban weed they will go home. The messed up part was this in order for you to get the stamp you needed to have the weed on hand for "inspection". But you could not have the weed with out the stamp. So it was outlawed for racial reasons!!! It was the first time in the history of this country that we banned a naturally growing plant.

The harmful side effects are less than that of alcohol, and Marijuana has been clinically proven by hundreds of independent studies to be not addictive!!!!!!!! You can't argue with the science my friends.

I do not condone the use of Marijuana nor do I condone committing illegal acts in any way shape or form. But you look into the eyes of the cancer patient or the AIDS patient and you fucking tell them no they may not have a plant that will make there lives just a little bit more bareable, cause I sure as the fuck can't.

No I am not a "pothead" but I do at least have the decency to research something and learn about it before I form an opinion. Instead of spouting off some drug war slogans and then having nothing further intelligent to offer to the conversation.

If you smoke it up stay home hang up the guns don't drive and enjoy your evening!!! When you buddy wake up the nest morning with a killer hangover and puking his guts out make sure you call him bright and early and whish him a great day.

[Robert Kayland]

Originally Posted by Carnes

I don't have to get into lengthy arguments with people about how we don't need more gun laws, and that many of the ones we have are unconstitutional.

On the other hand, if you want to debate pro-life/pro-choice, I am down for that... I'd be glad to hit on gay marriage, the tax system, the environment or whatever else.

It just so happens that drugs came up in this thread, and there is more irrational hatred of drugs from people here than there is irrational hatred of guns among the antis.

Really, I don't care if anyone hates drugs, I have a pretty low opinion of them myself. It is just problematic because people that adhere to irrational fear and hatred of drugs ultimately end up supporting the deterioration of our freedom as a result of that.

Well said... but I'm not so sure that the despising of illegal drug use is rightfully dismissed as "irrational".

Seriously what right does any oen have to tell me what I can and can not put into my body??

Don't ask, don't tell!

[stinkymcdoober]

Wow, I just read this entire thread, all 12 pages, and let me tell you, this is great. There are definately some libertarians here (or should-be libertarians).

For those who believe that buying a bag of pot will in some way help the terrorist down the street or in another country get that last part he needed for a WMD headed straight for your house, give me a break. Although I can't say that's not altogether impossible, it's so improbable I can't even personally gauge it as a real fear. My understanding is, most of the pot people in this country smoke today is grown, harvested, and sold within this country. Did we all forget about the states of Vermont, Montana, and Colorado? Check it out, most of the pot people smoke around the country is grown there. And I hate to tell you, it's been done that way for a lonnng time, so it's not like this just started 10 years ago by a guy who bought 100 bags of seeds from a terrorist. You grow pot, you have seeds to grow pot, which gives you seeds, to grow pot. The circle of pot-dom.

The one thing, however, that it seems like most of us agree on, is the fact that marijuana is illegal NOW. Yes, it's a sad truth, but one nonetheless. And for every person that you know that has had their life thrown into the toilet by pot, i could probably show you one that you never knew smoked. The same goes for caffiene, tylenol, percocet, etc. Shit, I've heard of people who's lives have been turned upside down over lip gloss or washing your hands (OCD giving people a somewhat addictive personality that overcomes their lives). It's just another thing people do, some better than others, which is where the problem is.

I just don't think that everyone who smokes pot is a "bad" person. Some are, but some aren't. Just like i don't believe that everyone who smokes pot will eventually become a future meth head. Some do, but then again....some legal gun owners are or could turn into serial killers. ( i can feel the shitstorm on that one). I'm not insinuating that anyone on this forum is or could be, but that's the kind of generalizations everyone (here andin the real world) throws around with topics like this.

There is a risk in doing anything illegal, but just sometimes if people didn't take risks for what they felt their liberties should be, our country would be very different than it is now.,

[Carnes]

Originally Posted by Robert Kayland

Well said... but I'm not so sure that the despising of illegal drug use is rightfully dismissed as "irrational".

I feel that it is fair to dislike any illegal activity. However, I feel it is important to challenge the legality of the activity.

So, I am not thinking about how I like or dislike 'illegal' drug use, I am just thinking about my disposition toward drug use. The conclusion that I arrive at is that individual freedom is more valuable than the associated negative consequences regarding legalizing and taxing drugs.

I also believe that government should use strong methods to encourage people to do the right thing. Rather than spending 400 Billion on the War on Drugs, that money could be used for prevention/education/rehab.

Government programs may be subjected to drug-testing. I do not think that the tax-payers should pay the welfare payments of a crack abuser.

I'm not trying to be an insane hippie druggie about this... I think there are legitimate reasons for abolishing current drug law.

[jon'76]

I honestly think (call me crazy) that if someone wants to use drugs and carry they have the right to do so, but if they cause any harm at all then they should be held fully liable.

Our society has replaced individual choice with unlimited liability for those choices, with government decrees and limited liabilities for ones actions. After all its not his fault, he's a good boy if he wasn't drunk it never would have happened please be lenient.

I just did a bit more research into this as its something I never really cared about so I didn't know much, but now I have to throw my hat firmly in the pro-legalization corner. Apparently it is impossible to overdose, has no serious side affects, and is proven to be safer than alcohol. I still don't think its a good idea or beneficial to your health, but if its not worse than alcohol then I see absolutely no reason to ban it.

See I always thought it was worse than alcohol and cigarettes, but just not as bad as crack and heroine. So now I find its illegality even more absurd.

[knighthawk06699]

Originally Posted by jon'76

I honestly think (call me crazy) that if someone wants to use drugs and carry they have the right to do so, but if they cause any harm at all then they should be held fully liable.

Our society has replaced individual choice with unlimited liability for those choices, with government decrees and limited liabilities for ones actions. After all its not his fault, he's a good boy if he wasn't drunk it never would have happened please be lenient.

I just did a bit more research into this as its something I never really cared about so I didn't know much, but now I have to throw my hat firmly in the pro-legalization corner. Apparently it is impossible to overdose, has no serious side affects, and is proven to be safer than alcohol. I still don't think its a good idea or beneficial to your health, but if its not worse than alcohol then I see absolutely no reason to ban it.

See I always thought it was worse than alcohol and cigarettes, but just not as bad as crack and heroine. So now I find its illegality even more absurd.

Bravo way to take some time educate yourself and learn. There is nothing wrong with researching and questioning why things are the way they are. It is safe, even safer if you ingest it not smoke it. If you eat it there are almost no harmful effects cept your short term memory goes to shit for a little (same with booze) and there will be no left overs in your fridge.