RUSSIAN WW2 M. 91/30 SNIPER RIFLE

[Willtallica]

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These look awesome. Can I just buy one for about 70$, and then buy a scope mount for it, and have one custom made for less than 150$ it's dead of paying over 400$?

[PA Rifleman]

Will:

The short answer is not really. Original 91/30 snipers that are truly all original will set you back at least $600+, I know since I have a few. There was a time when they were under $400 a pop, but that time is long gone.

The scope mounts are around $100 if you can find one. The repros aren't much cheaper, and some repro mounts are just plain trash. Most folks peddling Mosin sniper parts refrain from telling you they're repro. Most sidestep the question and point back to the vendor..."they said they're original, and from Russia, it's the real thing." Rubbish. If they were real, they'd know it first hand and they'd have the bill to prove it. It ain't rokkit siense, but it did elude these denizens of hooked on phonics as we'll see.

The bolt handle won't clear the scope, so the bolt handle must be bent down similar to the K98 Mauser, and lengthened. Then, the stock must be inletted to make adequate clearance for the scope mount...when you're done, you'll have a scoped 91/30, not a sniper. If you had the foresight to go through a bunch of 91/30s and test fire the lot for the best shooter, you might have a functional equivalent.

It's easier to get a repro 91/30 sniper from IO or a quasi-real sniper from SOGD for $350-ish. I was going to finish this post when all the parts came in, but it appears that might be too long. I looked at the guns at the link you provided. They look like the same guns CAI peddled to everyone else.

First, if you aren’t familiar with the Mosin series rifles, see the links at the end of this article. I’m not going to waste bandwidth rehashing what’s already been rehashed too many times in the ‘net already. I have a version of the Mosin story, but it's more a narrative of my family's experiences during the Cold War.

NOTE: all photos enlarge if you click on them.

Ordered two from Southern Ohio Gun (http://www.southernohiogun.com/mn.htm). They verbally assured me they were all "original Russian". The guns arrived in two business days.

Upon arrival, I found the scopes had been dismounted which is perfectly acceptable to protect the scope and the mounts.

Accessories included slings with loops, ammunition pouch, multi-purpose tool, crossbar, jag, muzzle cap (false muzzle) and hub for attaching crossbar to cleaning rod. Also included in addition to the scopes were leather lens caps and a canvas scope cover.

I made two immediately obvious discoveries. First, one of the scope mount bases was broken.

Upon closer inspection the mount was made from a lightweight cast metal. The grain structure reminded me of either pot metal or very cheap cast aluminum. Further examination revealed the following:

• The thumbscrew was threaded differently than the original PU example, it appeared to be a 3/16x14 automotive bolt whose head had been machined down & knurled. The original threads require periodic tightening, these coarse threads would not have held zero for more than a few shots at best.
• The scope mount was also made of a similar non-ferrous cast metal as the base. The original scope mount and base were both made of machined steel, and for a reason. The length of the scope mount acts as a lever, concentrating twisting forces on the mount. To maintain zero, these parts must be very tough. One example didn’t survive being shipped without a scope!
  
  
• The surviving base would not accept the scope mount. The opening clearance between the front ball joint and the rear mounting clamp is too close together. It’s easily fixed with a little filing or milling, but should have been caught before delivery. Some of the finish had been worn off near the clamp screw, indicating someone had tried to attach the scope, and used force to fully seat it. This is an obvious error the Soviets would not have made.
• The scope mount height is far higher than the originals. The original scope measures 7/8” from the top of the chamber to the bottom of the scope. On this example, it measured 1 ½”! Firing an original requires learning a new type of shooting style. With the Mosin sniper, the correct posture is more of a chin-weld than the usual cheek weld. Raising the scope an additional 5/8” moves the scope beyond the range of the chin-weld technique, and requires the use of a cheek pad.
  
  
• The bolt handles are very likely fake. There is evidence of recent welding under the bolt handle elbow, a dead give-away of a reproduction. Originals were originally machined to 3 ¼” long and bent down. This process results in a smooth radius along the length of the bolt handle stalk with a slight indentation where the anvil concentrated the bending force. The bolt handle on a standard Mosin rifle is 1 5/8”. While annoying, this isn’t a deal breaker either since it’s an easy fix. The bolt handle attaches to the bolt body, which doesn’t contain chamber pressure under normal conditions. This means the bolt body can be replaced without changing head clearance, as long as the original bolt head is retained.
• They are CAI import-marked. Unfortunately this may explain a lot.

The good news-the key parts were correct:

• Per the two letter prefix, the rifle was an original sniper and the scope was a period-correct “PU” scope. While the two-letter prefix started sometime around 1938, “CN” designated sniper rifle testing. The chamber had the typical “CN” mark, indicating it been accepted for use as a sniper’s rifle at some point. It’s also dated 1943, the correct time for a PU mount (1942 onward).
  
  
• The rifle’s condition was excellent. Everything was right…tight head clearance, all matching numbers, mirror bore, no counterbored muzzle.
• The scope was authentic, but lacked a date. So, it was probably post-war. Post-war use of W.W.II equipment is actually more desirable by my reasoning since it indicates continued satisfaction and adds more history. The lack of magnesium fluoride coating (the purple tint on better grade optics) would place the scope’s manufacture much closer to the end of the war, if not actual wartime manufacture. Later scope lenses were magnesium fluoride coated, although I don’t know the first year this feature appeared.
• Original mounts are still available, however many are still located in Baltic areas. I found a replacement in the Ukraine for $115 delivered. It’s an interesting situation…the cost of duplicating the mounts & bases is apparently too expensive for US-makers to copy, and the original mounts are plentiful in the impoverished areas of the former USSR. On this example, it appears the base screw and pin hole dimensions are the same as the originals, so the original mount should attach without modification.
• The accessories were complete & correct. The toolkit contained all the parts and the false muzzlecap to prevent muzzle erosion from cleaning with a steel cleaning rod. Interestingly, they did not come with bayonets which were issued to snipers.

My criticisms of SOGD are:
1.They placed all the accessories on the same bag. The oil & cleaning solvent bottle was still heavily coated with grease-like preservative, so the contents were a mess by the time I dug them out. Getting this thick grease out of the canvas sling will be a challenge.
2.The other detail I’d like SOGD to amend is mentioning the scope mounts…they’re fake. Period. I’d still buy one knowing they’re garbage, since mounts are still available and the added cost of replacing the mount still makes it worthwhile. I’d make sure I had a correct base and mount in hand first.
3.SOGD's advertisement is misleading at best. The dealer flyer they send out has a picture of an original steel mount. What they send is a post-war aluminum mount. Here's the image of the scope mount in the SOGD FFL dealer-only flyer:

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In this picture, the lightening grooves are clearly visible. They took a photo of an original Mosin sniper for this ad. Since this photo does not appear in the online ad, it suggests to me that they knew the collectors would likely catch this detail. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to estimate their motive for this.

...and here's an original and a Century/SOGD "sniper" side by side:

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Here's what you'll find on SOGD's online ad (link):

These are WWII Russian snipers rifles with PU 3.5 scopes and mounts. These are refinished at Russian arsenals, and are in very good to excellent condition. The scopes are Russian marked and may be post-WWII. Accessories are included. Satisfaction guaranteed, or your money back. These are nice!

No discussion of the mounts whatsoever, and the rifle's turned so you can't see the missing grooves. Nice.

Summary & recommendation: go ahead and buy under these conditions:
Request handpick excellent condition ex-sniper, high wall with sniper acceptance codes (“C” prefix-serial number on chamber.)
Budget an original PU mount to the cost-$75-$120 range
Budget a re-drill & tap operation (machine shop or gunsmith)

Additional information about Mosins:
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl03-e.htm
http://7.62x54r.net/
http://www.mosinnagant.net/
http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianm...9130/index.asp
http://www.mosinnagant.net/i3tro4.asp

UPDATE 28 FEB 2007:
The correct scope mount and base arrived, looks like all the holes in the receiver must be filled and re-drilled. Not only are they placed differently, the screw threads are different. Also, the alignment pins are 0.178" dia, the originals are 0.198".

[Willtallica]

That is a beautiful reply. So with all of that bullcrap aside, do you think a repro is worth the money (If not wat is a repro worth)? If not I'd like to try to wheel, and deal, because I'm sure they don't sell them like crazy.

[PA Rifleman]

...do you think a repro is worth the money (If not wat is a repro worth)? If not I'd like to try to wheel, and deal, because I'm sure they don't sell them like crazy.

I don't think you'll get anywhere trying to talk them down on price. As far as recommendations, read the entire post. Near the bottom:

Summary & recommendation: go ahead and buy under these conditions:
Request handpick excellent condition ex-sniper, high wall with sniper acceptance codes (“C” prefix-serial number on chamber.)
Budget an original PU mount to the cost-$75-$120 range

Also note date ranges:

PE - 1932-1936 (PE is focus adjustable)

PEM 1936-1940, 1942 for a short time

PU - 1942-1947
(source)

There was a guy on Gun Broker selling a complete PE "sniper" with a 1943 dated receiver. All original, of course.

If all you want is a scoped Mosin, have a look at IO's repros. The cost of this rifle isn't a lot more than the sum of the parts. Make sure the mount's steel, tho.

[Willtallica]

For some reason it still feels somewhat unworthy, that's what I meant when I was asking again.

What do you think about having a gun a gunsmith bent the bolt or weld it?

[PA Rifleman]

Not sure exactly what you're asking, Will. As you can see from the pictures the weld quality certainly is adequate and asthetically acceptable. It isn't original, but it does work.

As far as how I feel about it, it's more up to the end buyer. In my case, I'll leave it as-is for the short term. In the long run I'll keep an eye out for an original long-handle bolt body. If I don't find one, I may develop a technique similar to the original bolt handle modification and re-do it myself.

If you're asking about value, the decisive factor is the provenance of the basic rifle. If it was never a sniper, it will always be a repro at best, a fake at worst. Slapping a PU scope makes it nothing more than a scoped 91/30, and isn't worth much more than the cost of the rifle and parts. The real value of such a gun is the inexpensive and ubiquitous ammunition.

In my case, the new "sniper" appears to be an ex-sniper that was reconfigured back, an with a sub-standard mount that I chose to replace with an original. In this case, I will keep the rifle that survived the trip, but I have returned the rifle that arrived broken in shipment.

Does this answer your question?

[Willtallica]

Yeah, but repro almost feels fake to me. I'd personally rather just build one into a sniper, than buy a repro. Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot cheaper that way?

[PA Rifleman]

Will:

I'm unclear on a point-what's the difference between buying a repro and making one yourself? The cost? Either way, it's a reproduction. Originals are very rare and sometimes difficult to authenticate.

SOGD is selling repros for $350-ish, but you'll need a mount. If you shop around you *may* find someone selling them with the correct mount.

If you add up the cost of all the parts & a rifle, and a realistic fund for gunsmithing, it'll be really close. If you're looking for a $150-$200 91/30 sniper look-alike with all original parts, you won't find one. $400 seems to be the baseline for correct repro sniper.

IO's sniper for $398 is the cheapest repro that's very close to original, and has correct (but repro) parts.

[gunhealer65]

samco global has what the call decommisioned snipers ,they are complete with correct bolts but do not have the scope mount and base .i have put together several of these utilizing repro pu scopes and bases and some i used real ww2 vintage hardware that i bought from auction online.all of the rifles had excellent bores and were very accurate.doing this is alittle more costly but you will end up with a rifle that not only looks good but is a good shooter too.

[gunhealer65]

by the way the earlier inter ordnance snipers although not 100% real were built on decommisioned snipers.