So if a park is not a STATE PARK....

[WhiteFeather]

GunLawyer001 makes several excellent legal points as usual.

Is it cheaper to fight in court with your back against the legal wall after you are arrest and try to plead your case to a judge or is it wiser to work with the elected officials to change their park regulations to be in compliance with state law?



Sadly, most people only experience with courts rooms and laws are from watching television shows. The real legal system don’t work the way it does its portrayed on court room TV shows with made up written plots for drama and entertainment purposes only.

Don’t be foolish with you freedoms, rights and privileges in our society on what you believe the law is, or you’re assumptions could cause you to go shopping for an experienced trial attorney that hopefully you can afford to hire to get you out of a legal jam

We on PAFOA forums are very lucky that we have several lawyers that like firearms that also bring several lifetimes worth of real court room experiences so that the rest of us are fortunate enough to gain some of their legal insight, knowledge and advice the inexpensive way.

[jack76590]

Again does anyone have an idea of what type of penalty they could impose? Do local authorities have the right to make violation of their ordinance a criminal offense? Or are violations of ordinances a civil offense with limited sanctions?

It is one thing to risk ending up in jail with a criminal record as opposed to being assessed a civil penalty, that is the same as those assessed to people who litter, have their dog off the leash, in the park after hours, drinking in the park, etc.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by jack76590

Again does anyone have an idea of what type of penalty they could impose? Do local authorities have the right to make violation of their ordinance a criminal offense? Or are violations of ordinances a civil offense with limited sanctions?

It is one thing to risk ending up in jail with a criminal record as opposed to being assessed a civil penalty, that is the same as those assessed to people who litter, have their dog off the leash, in the park after hours, drinking in the park, etc.

Once you start interacting with cops, anything can happen, especially when you attempt to assert your civil rights and you ruin their fun.

The locals can't enact a valid ordinance that penalizes gun possession, but they can tap into the state laws, like trespass, as well as the statutes that criminalize the various flavors of failing to respect the officers "authoritay". Resisting arrest, assaulting a police officer, whatever spin they decide to put on your declining to cooperate with their jackbootedness. The court will sort it out later, at your expense.
That's their biggest weapon, the fact that government agents will get paid for harassing you, while you have to dip into your savings to fight back. Then your case will be heard by the impartial judges who get paid by the same people that pay your accusers.

[jack76590]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Once you start interacting with cops, anything can happen, especially when you attempt to assert your civil rights and you ruin their fun.

The locals can't enact a valid ordinance that penalizes gun possession, but they can tap into the state laws, like trespass, as well as the statutes that criminalize the various flavors of failing to respect the officers "authoritay". Resisting arrest, assaulting a police officer, whatever spin they decide to put on your declining to cooperate with their jackbootedness. The court will sort it out later, at your expense.
That's their biggest weapon, the fact that government agents will get paid for harassing you, while you have to dip into your savings to fight back. Then your case will be heard by the impartial judges who get paid by the same people that pay your accusers.

I may not have made my question clear. I don't plan on resisting arrest or even questioning their authority at the time of citation if there is a citation. My question is: Am I risking more than a $200 fine?

In short it is easy to say "concealed means concealed" if you are not risking much. Again my question, what am I risking. More than the consequences of littering, dog off leash, etc. In short more than the normal ordinance citations?

There is a park, which will remain nameless. The park has no big signs about no guns. They have a bulletin type board. On bulletin board are park rules, don't leave any trash, keep dog on leash, etc and no firearms. This stuff is all bunched together and no one much really reads it. And the authority for all these violations are in one general ordinance which is cited. If I got stopped I would plead I was ignorant of the rules- who ever reads all the stuff on the bulletin board.

I don't know what I would do after the incident should it occur, but I would not protest then and give the officer the encouragement to lay on other charges. This is where I think the Dickson people were taking a chance. They should have been polite, left and then complained when the officers could no longer make up charges. They were lucky this did not happen.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by jack76590

I may not have made my question clear. I don't plan on resisting arrest or even questioning their authority at the time of citation if there is a citation. My question is: Am I risking more than a $200 fine?

In short it is easy to say "concealed means concealed" if you are not risking much. Again my question, what am I risking. More than the consequences of littering, dog off leash, etc. In short more than the normal ordinance citations?

There is a park, which will remain nameless. The park has no big signs about no guns. They have a bulletin type board. On bulletin board are park rules, don't leave any trash, keep dog on leash, etc and no firearms. This stuff is all bunched together and no one much really reads it. And the authority for all these violations are in one general ordinance which is cited.

Your question was probably clear enough, but the reality is that the police have discretion as to what they will charge, and their memories of how you reacted will likely be helpfully flexible. You don't have to resist to be charged with resisting, you don't have to strike out at an officer to be charged with assaulting an officer. And "disorderly conduct" can be charged if they don't like your T-shirt.

If you're just looking at a trespassing charge, it ranges from a summary offense up to a felony; look at Title 18, Section 3503. Depends on the facts.

[jack76590]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Your question was probably clear enough, but the reality is that the police have discretion as to what they will charge, and their memories of how you reacted will likely be helpfully flexible. You don't have to resist to be charged with resisting, you don't have to strike out at an officer to be charged with assaulting an officer. And "disorderly conduct" can be charged if they don't like your T-shirt.

If you're just looking at a trespassing charge, it ranges from a summary offense up to a felony; look at Title 18, Section 3503. Depends on the facts.

I agree a police officer can throw all sorts of charges at you and might well do it if he/she believes his/her authority if being challenged.

However, the officer can do this on the street or for example against people supporting open carry. In fact I am surprised it has not been done against the open carry people. I think they would have been well advised to have taken the citation/direction without question, left immediately and then protested from a safe distance.

But narrowing the question to the park ordinances, I suppose the "legitimate" citations could involve some potentially interrelated matters.

1. trespass

2. Authority to enforce the ordinances

3. maximum penalties they can assess under 1 and 2 above.

I agree with you that every time you enact with a police officer there is the potential he/she will "set you up". But that can happen in almost any circumstance. So my question is not really how they can hurt you with a "set up", although I agree with and appreciate your caution. Rather my question is what can they do to you if they act properly under the law and the judge really upholds the local government's authority to issue the ordinance prohibiting firearms in the park.

Or is this an impossible question to answer.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by jack76590

......So my question is not really how they can hurt you with a "set up", although I agree with and appreciate your caution. Rather my question is what can they do to you if they act properly under the law and the judge really upholds the local government's authority to issue the ordinance prohibiting firearms in the park.
.......

Any local ordinance with criminal sanctions would likely be preempted by the UFA. But a non-statutory condition imposed by the property owner is not necessarily preempted (although that's not certain at all). If the condition or limitation of use (the park rule) is valid, then any violation would be the basis of a trespass and/or disorderly conduct charge.

It's hard to predict what the Common Pleas and appellate courts would do with this, where you have a governmental subdivision arguably "regulating" possession, but at the same time you have a property owner simply setting terms of use of the property. (I'd expect the local DJ's to uphold any summary charges, that's pretty much what DJ's do.) Every court case has at least one disappointed legal team, sometimes both sides get less than they hoped. That's why cases frequently settle, because neither side is sure how the dice will fall.

If you go back and read the predictions for the Heller case, I'll bet that you'll find some very optimistic but totally wrong viewpoints on the Lefty websites, all with very persuasive arguments. The legal system has biased humans applying preconceptions to ambiguous words and phrases, so the results can be unpredictable.

[jahwarrior72]

Originally Posted by jahwarrior72

this is the sign in McDade park, a Lackawanna county park:



so what you all are saying, regardless of the sign, i can carry, OC or CC, and i won't be breaking the law?

well, i fired off an email to commissioner washo. i don't know if he'll respond or not. i called up the people who run McDade, and they weren't aware that the park regs on firearms were illegal; they're the ones who suggested i contact the county commissioner. i'm sure if he gets enough phone calls/emails, he'll do something about it.

[Statkowski]

Per original posting, send the County Commissioners, by name, a hard-copy letter not unlike one posted here (http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...nty-parks.html). Make it Certified, Return Receipt if necessary. E-mails lack signatures, hard-copy letters do not. E-mails are somewhat impersonal, hard-copy letters are not.

[shefearsnothing]

I found another park too on Charlestown Rd that has the no firearms rule posted. (This is more the millersville area)